Subject: KIS ASS

From: "Rick H. Wesson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:35:06 -0800 (PST)

Keep It Simple and Scaleable Stupid

the internet is a beautiful thing. it works, which is more than can be
said about so many things in this world of our, less physics and nature. 

we can not allow the network to be governed by those that don't truely
understand the nets inner workings. 

i am not pleased with the USG's "green paper." if you feel likewize and
wish to see IANA and the rest of the I* organizations retain their ability
to to effect positive and scaleable chage to this network, *please* ask
your organization to sign the gTLD-MoU, as this is the single Best Way
(tm) to vocalize to the USG that the *users* of the network wish to govern
themselves. 

if we let this network be governed by any other, then we loose one of the
greatest oppertunities to keep what works... working. 

regards,

-rick

---

From: "Rick H. Wesson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:35:06 -0800 (PST)

regards,

-rick

---

From: Martin Essenburg <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:38:47 -0500

Rick,
I agree with you on your point. But considering when the Internet was
developed, universities connected to each other to share info. Now corp.
America has used the internet to Market,Sell,Instruct, and communicate.
It scares me that now one governs the internet. It really is a bunch of
networks interconnected with some minimal BGP rules. I think the
Internet would be able to go to the next level with a controling body

The old days are just that. We need to put things aside and work on the
future. 

Just my 2 pennies...

Cheers
Marty

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Martin Essenburg |  "Where's the ka-boom? There's supposed to be an
  HostMaster@    |  Earth-shattering ka-boom!...Heavens! Someone has
  SunGod.com     |  stolen the Illudium Q-38 Explosive Space Modulator!
"Delays, delays!"|  The Earth creature has *stolen* the Space
Modulator!"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

---

From: Martin Essenburg <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:38:47 -0500

Rick,

Just my 2 pennies...

Cheers
Marty

---

From: "Rick H. Wesson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:37:55 -0800 (PST)

Marty,

i was not proposing that new governance structures should
not be created, but that the creation and management of such 
structures do not belong under the guize of the USG. the
internet is international, the USG is not.

i was saying that if the net is to have a 'king' it should
be an engineer not a beauracrat.

-rick

---

From: Martin Essenburg <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:57:03 -0500

Rick,
I understand and I agree.... Maybe there needs to be some sort of mix,
because the Internet spans the globe and everyone has a differnat
agenda. It would be nice to have such a thing in place...

Marty

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:49:55 -0600

> greatest oppertunities to keep what works... working. 

Heh, Rick.

Monopolists lost.

CORE was just another one, albiet in the worst, and most dangerous place -
the top of the hierarchy.

IMHO, Mr. Postel, who recently tried to put in place a way to hijack the
roots, deserves to end up EXACTLY where Eugene is right now - facing 
federal criminal charges.

--
-- 
Karl Denninger ([email-masked])| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/          | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
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---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:49:55 -0600

Heh, Rick.

Monopolists lost.

---

From: [email-masked] (Antony Van Couvering)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:08:51 -0500

>federal criminal charges.

Karl,

Where would you put NSI, who have effectively hijacked the roots?  Or the
U.S. Gov't, for that matter?

Overnight, the Internet mode of opeation has changed from bottom-up
cooperation to top-down diktat.  Jon was "ordered", to quote the Washington
Post, to point everything at NSI.

I thought the roots didn't belong to anyone, that they existed and ran
smoothly as a result of root server operators' consensus.

Until yesterday, no-one had challenged Jon Postel's authority to do what he
thought was best with regard to the roots, because he has earned the
respect of those operators.

You have long been an expert at seeing power grabs where none existed.  Now
that there is one with huge implications for the Internet, right in front
of your eyes, your only reaction is to be first in line to kick one of the
fathers of the Internet while he is down.  Bravo.

Antony

---

From: [email-masked] (Antony Van Couvering)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:08:51 -0500

Karl,

Antony

---

From: Sascha Ignjatovic <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 01:30:50 +0100 (MET)

> federal criminal charges.

hijack the roots  ?

mr.postel IS the root you fool :-)

he hase build them up at a time you probably where not even aware of your 
self-me too and terefor i respekt dr.postel and would folow his lead for 
ever   

sascha
ps.sory to the list

---

From: Sascha Ignjatovic <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 01:30:50 +0100 (MET)

hijack the roots  ?

sascha
ps.sory to the list

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:18:02 -0600

On Sun, Feb 01, 1998 at 07:08:51PM -0500, Antony Van Couvering wrote:
> Where would you put NSI, who have effectively hijacked the roots?  

One "hijacking" makes others legitimate?

> Or the

The US Government owns the roots and owns IANA (since it funds it).  Without
direction from the government and absent their *constructive* abdication,
the root system is effectively theirs.

NSI's operation of "A" is under NSF directive - aka, the US Government.

Now its under the Department of Commerce's directive.  Again, the person
paying the piper calls the tune.

The piper has said they intend to pass control to a private, non-profit US
corporation with the FULL IMPLICATIONS OF US ANTI-TRUST LAW bearing on that
organization.  That organization is *NOT* the current IANA, although it
might bear the same name.

To which I say "Its about darn time", and "while you're at it, prosecute any
EXISTING anti-trust violations you might be able to find in the current IANA
or any other so-called 'oversight' organziation for the Internet."

And yes, I do mean Mr. Postel and Mr. Manning, specifically, should be
investigated - in my opinion - and if cause is found, brought up on charges.

Heh, if they did nothing wrong, then what's the problem with a look back at
all of their decisions over the last 10 years in the areas of TLD management
(or mismanagement), IP number assignment, etc?

I can think of a few explicit instances where I believe that there could be
trouble.... but heh, I might be wrong.  That's what prosecutors and
investigators are for though - to figure out whether or not laws were
violated.

> Post, to point everything at NSI.

You bet.  This is as it should be.  "Ye who pays the bill calls the tune."

> smoothly as a result of root server operators' consensus.

Wrong again; consensus requires discussion and OPEN PROCESS, neither of
which has been present in the past.  What has been present is an effective 
monarchy.  I saw no discussion, comment, or public input into what Postel
did - in fact, he did it "under the sheets" explicitly, and it wasn't until
it was leaked that people became aware of it!

That's not CONSENSUS - its control by an Emporer and, IMHO, an abuse of
power.

> respect of those operators.

Wrong again.  Jon Postel is an employee of the US Government in the function
of the IANA, since the IANA is funded by the US Government directly and
indirectly.  

Therefore, he has no authority to act on his own in this matter, and in 
fact never did have that authority.

> fathers of the Internet while he is down.  Bravo.

IMHO he deserves to be brought up on charges for that action, and I 
believe he has deserved that same "reward" since September of 1995.  

In fact, this situation is far more serious than the one in 1995.  Its 
rather obvious to ANYONE looking at this that Postel's actions were a 
prelude to a hijacking of the root system DIRECTLY IN THE FACE OF THE 
US GOVERNMENT - with the purpose of adding the CORE TLDs.

If there's a violation of law in there somewhere (ie: conspiracy, or 
perhaps racketeering?) I ask that the Federal prosecutorial system 
bring charges.

"Father figures" are supposed to be held to HIGHER accountability standards 
than the rest of us.  Mr. Postel has breached the public trust placed in him
and should be fully and maximally held to account for those actions.

I have maintained precisely this position since that time, and the last 
time I looked I was entitled to my opinion (and to express it).

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:18:02 -0600

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:04:05 -0800

As always, we seem to be unwilling to let facts get in the way of a
strongly held view:

>One "hijacking" makes others legitimate?

When one is the well-established (i.e., ever since the inception of
service) authority for an activity and when a change has been planned for a
very long time, then one is not "hijacking" the service to put that change
in place.

>The US Government owns the roots and owns IANA (since it funds it).  Without

False twice.  The USG has power over a portion of the root, not all of it.
Whether it has "authority" over any of it is yet a different question, but
it certainly doesn't have authority over the entirety.  The authority for
root rests with IANA.  The USG provides funding to IANA, but IANA's
authority comes from the community not the US government.
 
>NSI's operation of "A" is under NSF directive - aka, the US Government.

And how convenient has been NSI's interpretation of that directive.  The
directive was absolute yet NSI continued to add TLDs per IANA's direction,
without further consultation with the USG. 

>paying the piper calls the tune.

Directive?  When did it achieve that status?  I thought this was just a
proposal being circulated for comments.  

>might bear the same name.

Odd that no one noticed that IANA has been exploring assorted methods of
moving out from under USC-ISI cover and USG funding for some time.  How
very convenient that the USG "proposal" just happens to match the version
of the plan that IANA has gravitated to.

>And yes, I do mean Mr. Postel and Mr. Manning, specifically, should be

And how convenient that no one seems to have noticed that a judge did, in
fact, do some review of IANA and the derivative IAHC work and found it just
fine, thank you very much.

>Heh, if they did nothing wrong, then what's the problem with a look back at

What an interesting approach to the Law, viewing it as a management review
technique.  I guess that explains the incessant calls for legal action.

>which has been present in the past.  What has been present is an effective 

Right.  Totally lacking.  No public discussion or modification.  Amazing
that anyone would think otherwise.  All the email exchanges, all the public
meetings, all the modifications must be an illusion.

>That's not CONSENSUS - its control by an Emporer and, IMHO, an abuse of

But, as Anthony noted, you would rather have control by the White House?

d/
--------------------
Dave Crocker                                          +1 408 246 8253
Brandenburg Consulting                           fax: +1 408 249 6205  
675 Spruce Dr.                               [email-masked]
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA                    http://www.brandenburg.com

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:04:05 -0800

d/
--------------------

---

From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 20:49:03 +0000

Sascha and all,

> mr.postel IS the root you fool :-)

  He is no such thing.  He is a human being not a machine you fool!

> self-me too and terefor i respekt dr.postel and would folow his lead for

  Dr Postel did not do this alone for one thing.  Secondly, hero worship is a
very
percarious thing ans has no place in this situation.  Yes Dr. Postel should be

respected, but not considered a god.  No one should have that status in any
field
of endevor.

> ps.sory to the list

 Regards,

--
Jeffrey A. Williams
DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]

---

From: Sascha Ignjatovic <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:00:43 +0100 (MET)

> But, as Anthony noted, you would rather have control by the White House?

mr.crocker thank you for clarifaying some facts 

any representative of any government/nation hase some of very fine and 
useful qualitys and so also the officers of the american government 
they help to organize and to find consensus in their society-in our case 
the next step of the development of the internet domain name system

as you and some other folks have mentioned the politician and officers 
hase good diplomatic skills and trys to "make everybody happy" but they
have not absolute knowledge in any aspects of live 

so they was not expert on internet so they learn and profit from experts 
like iana isoc iab ietf    so the proposals of the usg hase their 
roots in the knowledge of internet founders-this are not only the people 
who pays money :-)

BUT as ANY poltician today hase a problem with beeing LIMITED to the 
concept of ONE NATION  so also the american government

and hier is exactly the chalenge for the poltical science and management 
system   they have to evolve in the face of internet

the internet hase his origin in the united states of america but it is 
become a global system-wich is not entayerly builded by america allone:-)
 
so there is the chalenge on both side  

on the side of the internet community to learn from governments how to 
manaege complex systems and to government to learn how to be a part
of a common management of the planet earth system

if we see the ideology of a national state and the ideologie of the 
internet than the internet is superior and its leads the political 
development 

so the internet is the superior political entity and poeple who hase 
understand this they angage them self in building up the internet 
as the new management system for the society of the planet earth

the internet is the new government of the planet earth and it hase its 
own politicians  

one of them is dr.jon postel and many of his colegues who all together 
work for the vision of a new age where the boundaries of national states 
are nothing more wich will devide us becouse we have the internet wich 
unity us

the aproach of the us government is nationalistic and bears no global 
visions and also dont meets the development at the present time 

so there is the need for involvment of the political systems into 
internet liek the commerce was involved into internet

but neither commerce or policy can be the highest autority for the internet

so this is the mesage the internet wants to give them 

> d/

thanks 
sascha

---

From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 20:49:03 +0000

Sascha and all,

 Regards,

---

From: Sascha Ignjatovic <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:00:43 +0100 (MET)

thanks 
sascha

---

From: Sascha Ignjatovic <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:09:56 +0100 (MET)

>   He is no such thing.  He is a human being not a machine you fool!

a system administrator on a unix system cals a root

so dr.postel is something like internet dns root administrator

i also want to thank and congratulate all this people who together build up 
the system we today call the internet  

i apologize also to mr.deninger-it was not bad minded
he is shure trying as good he cans to contribute to the internet as we all
and for that i also thank to him 

so please let us now change the subject and move from the ietf list this 
discussion 

thank you all very much and many apologize for using your lists to
exchange this ideas and flames 

thanks
sascha

---

From: Sascha Ignjatovic <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:09:56 +0100 (MET)

thanks
sascha

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:32:17 -0500

Tony wrote:
>Until yesterday, no-one had challenged Jon Postel's authority to do what
>he thought was best with regard to the roots, because he has earned the

 Over the last two years EVERYONE
 has ripped Postel's authority to
 shreds. And the pitiful respect
 of ten guys and a handful of IETF
 stiffs is irrelevant. Postel is
 deposed. What remains is to install
 the next regime. One which must
 be broad based and democratic. If
 any of you imagine what occured in
 the past was even remotely democratic
 you are deluding yourselves.

TeleVirtually Yours,

Bob Allisat

http://www.wtv.net

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:31:01 -0500

TeleVirtually Yours,

Bob Allisat

http://www.wtv.net

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:34:39 -0500

>be an engineer not a beauracrat.

 Heavan help us from the freaking
 engineers. The Internet needs a
 groups of rather astute facilitators
 who are elected by the people actually
 using the Internet. We see what heppens
 when the engineers run things. This is
 a network of human beings not a frigging
 circuit board.

TeleVirtually Yours,

Bob Allisat

http://www.wtv.net

---

From: Saravanan Radhakrishnan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:43:17 -0600 (CST)

It would be nice if all of you restrict such talks to each other 
rather than sending it to everybody. I don't mean to say that this
is crap, just that it would be better to restrict the use of mailing
lists to disseminate knowledge and promote subject oriented arguments.
I would and I am sure that many would appreciate if you take off
those email addresses from the "To:" field.

Thanks
Saravanan R.

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:32:17 -0500

TeleVirtually Yours,

Bob Allisat

http://www.wtv.net

---

From: Saravanan Radhakrishnan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:43:17 -0600 (CST)

Thanks
Saravanan R.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 22:55:59 -0500

>  a network of human beings not a frigging

Just remember, it IS circuit boards that connect the people.

The *last* time we let somebody elected by the people do anything
resembling running the Internet we got the Exon Amendment.

Be careful what you ask for, you may get it.

				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech

---

From: [email-masked] (Abhijit Naik)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:30:20 -0800 (PST)

Even I think So.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Abhijit A. Naik

(Software Engineer)
Tata Interactive Systems
Mumbai
Ph :- (O) 8210748, 8220980
      (R) 8872373.
_________________________________________________________________________________

---

From: [email-masked] (Abhijit Naik)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:30:20 -0800 (PST)

Even I think So.

Abhijit A. Naik

(Software Engineer)
Tata Interactive Systems
Mumbai

---

From: Edgar Danielyan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:52:58 +0400 (GMT)

>  Over the last two years EVERYONE

You don't have authority to speak on behalf of "EVERYONE".

>  stiffs is irrelevant. Postel is

You ARE irrelevant. Blaming respected people isn't a way to
fix things. Or are you going to blow everything up and then 
build a "bright future"? 

>  the next regime. One which must

Wow! How interesting. Are you offering yourself for the role
of such regime's prophet or something?

[can't write respectfully yours, regretfully]

-edd

---

From: Edgar Danielyan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:52:58 +0400 (GMT)

-edd

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:33:01 -0500

I wrote:
>>  the next regime...

Ed replied:
>(edit)
>(edit)

 Not prophet. More like the emmissary
 poet of this new direction. Furthermore
 if respected people blunder and fall and
 continue in the same disasterous paths
 we are left no choice but to summarily
 depose them and, if so called upon, to
 destroy all they misguidedly created. On
 the last matter as to who speaks for the
 prescient "EVERYONE" only tommorrow will
 tell. My sense is that the vision I promote
 is in closer tune with the interests of the
 General Good than is the cult of personaily
 aka: IANA/IETF/IAB/ISOC/IAHC/CORE/POC/ETC...

 Fighting words that would be unneccessary
 if you would but see youir collective folly.

TeleVirtually Yours,

Bob Allisat

http://www.wtv.net

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:33:01 -0500

TeleVirtually Yours,

Bob Allisat

http://www.wtv.net

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:36:04 -0500

(Trimming down the cc: list just a *tad*)

> of the IANA, since the IANA is funded by the US Government directly and

Umm.. I believe the legal term you are looking for here is "subcontractor".

I've known a number of people who have been subcontractors to various US
government agencies - they are most certainly *not* employees of the US
government.  I visited one of them up at NASA's Greenbelt site a few years
ago - some of the name badges said 'NASA', and some quite clearly stamped
"SUBCONTRACTOR".    I don't think he was eligible for a government pension
or other benefits either.... ;)

> fact never did have that authority.

Please go read up on the laws here.  In particular, go look at what the IRS
considers the distinction between "subcontractor" and "employee".  One of
the distinguising characteristics between the two is the amount of direct
supervision over the employee/subcontractor.

<Just a quick injection of Reality-1998 this fine Monday morning.  I hope it
doesn't prove lethal to anybody...;) >
-- 
				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech

---

From: veni markovski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:35:42 +0200

A few lines:
1. Was it neccessary to have this subject line in order to start a serious
discussion?
2. While you are discussing the problems in the US, don't forget we are
facing the same problems in the emerging countries?
I understand the importance of the TLD in the US, but believe me - it's
very difficult to answer the questions of Bulgarian ISPs, internauts, and
usual people when they see the same situation here, except that instead of
USGovernment, you could change the words to BG-NIC.

And despites our efforts to bring this issue to RIPE, IANA, ISOC, Bulgarian
authority... there's no result. 

You can see the story at http://www.bol.bg, http://www.bioteam.bg,
http://www.bis.bg, http://www.cyberlink.bg, http://www.inet.bg,
http://www.mobiltel.bg and many other Bulgarian web sites under the gif
picture named TLDA.GIF with a signature: .BG - For A Better TLDA 

Is there someone that can propose some help?

Regards,

Veni Markovski,
Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, 
http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/
phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 805012
mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria
***
Because e-mail can be altered electronically,
the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

---

From: veni markovski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:35:42 +0200

A few lines:

Regards,

Veni Markovski,

---

From: Einar Stefferud <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 13:59:25 -0800

Really trimming the CC list;-)...

Clearly Jon is not a US Govt employee, and clearly subcontractors have
a great deal less direct US Govt supervision than US Govt emplyees,
but lets not carry this too far...

There is always a (hopefully) clear boundary arond the range of
actions that a subcontractor can take.  I too have had many US Govt
contracts and subcontracts, and none of them ever gave me the
authority to hand off my responsibilities under the contract to anyone
else without sttict approval of my US Govt contracting officer.

So, I will claim, subject to confirmation by someone in the US Govt,
that in fact, Jon Postel did not and does not have authority to
permanently reassign both his IANA authority and respoinsibility to
any other party.  At most, he can return it back to the US Govt, or
fulfill his contract, or have it taken away by the US Govt.

In the case at hand, I believe that, outside of the content of the
Green Paper, the US Govt has acted to restrict the actions that Jon is
now allowed to take without specific US Govt approval.

But, if we want to know the true facts of all this, we need to get
some words of explanation from either Jon or the US Govt, as it is a
matter of a binding contract between them, and no one else at this
point in time.

I will note that NSI is in a somewhat similar situation, which is also
part of the existing mess that the US Govt needs to clean up as part
of its transition plans.  As such, I really don't expect them to
conduct this cleanup operation in public, nor do I wish them to.
There is however the whole business of anti-trust that is part of teh
NSI situation and that is addressed in the Green Paper.

Just trying to introduce some straight forward logic to this discussion.

Cheers...\Stef

>From Valdis.Kletnieks's message Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:36:04 -0500:
}
}On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:18:02 CST, Karl Denninger said:
}> Wrong again.  Jon Postel is an employee of the US Government in the function
}> of the IANA, since the IANA is funded by the US Government directly and
}> indirectly.  
}
}Umm.. I believe the legal term you are looking for here is "subcontractor".
}
}I've known a number of people who have been subcontractors to various US
}government agencies - they are most certainly *not* employees of the US
}government.  I visited one of them up at NASA's Greenbelt site a few years
}ago - some of the name badges said 'NASA', and some quite clearly stamped
}"SUBCONTRACTOR".    I don't think he was eligible for a government pension
}or other benefits either.... ;)
}
}> Therefore, he has no authority to act on his own in this matter, and in 
}> fact never did have that authority.
}
}Please go read up on the laws here.  In particular, go look at what the IRS
}considers the distinction between "subcontractor" and "employee".  One of
}the distinguising characteristics between the two is the amount of direct
}supervision over the employee/subcontractor.
}
}<Just a quick injection of Reality-1998 this fine Monday morning.  I hope it
}doesn't prove lethal to anybody...;) >
}-- 
}				Valdis Kletnieks
}				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
}				Virginia Tech
}
}
}--==_Exmh_1388427312P
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}
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}--==_Exmh_1388427312P--
}