Subject: User Petition on Standards to Netscape and Microsoft

From: "Steven Clift" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:31:51 +0000

From: "Steven Clift" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: User Petition on Standards to Netscape and Microsoft
Reply-to: [email-masked]
CC: [email-masked]

This is probably not the first "user" campaign, but it does raise the 
issue of how folks influence the kind of Internet world we work and 
live in.  As the WC3 and IETF work away, I suppose it is nice to be 
reminded that open standards work on the Internet is appreciated and 
important.

Steven Clift
Democracies Online
  Noting that how the Internet comes to use its tools for 
"self-governance" will directly influence how democracies around the 
world will come to use the these tools for political governance. 

This was covered at:

	http://www.webreview.com/97/12/05/dom/petition.html

Text From:

	http://www.webcom1.com/anglais/cgi/petition.cgi/petition.tpl

the "Talk to each other!" petition to Netscape and
                               Microsoft

             The two most popular browsers, Netscape and Microsoft
             Internet Explorer, are increasingly incompatible. While
             they fight for market shares, it's the internauts and
             content providers who bear the cost and the bugs of that
             war. If, like me, you've had enough of the victim's role,
             send them the following petition. And spread the word!
             It's everybody's business to see to it that Internet
             keeps serving common interest before self-interest. 

             [email-masked] 

             P.S.: If you have a Web page, please add a link to this
             petition. Thanks. 

             P.P.S.: Sorry if my English is bad. My first language is
             French. 

               Send to:  [email-masked],[email-masked]

>From the form:

I hereby protest against the way you develop your respective
 browsers. The increasing incompatibility between your products
 bothers all internauts and content providers. For Net's sake,
 talk to each other! Match up your tags, attributes, margins,
 fonts, spacing... The Net is about cooperation, not competition. We
 have no use of your latest innovation, however wonderful, if it only
 works with your own software. The Internet cake is big enough for
 everyone. The more universal your codes, the nicer our pages and the
 more internauts. Thank you. 

                        (additional comments)

Your name:

            Your address:
         (electronic or postal)

    Please, send only one petition
    otherwise the number of
    petitions sent won't be as
    significant. Besides, the
    objective is not to jam those
    companies servers. 

                                     RESULTS

     The results of the petition will be updated every Monday. You can
     also access them on WebCarta. 

                                     CREDITS

     The hosting and statistics of this petition are graciously
     provided by Francom=E9dia. The animated chain is a creation of Yves
     Piguet. The original CGI scripts (to send the petition) are from
     Huihong Luo and Lincoln D. Stein. 

Total number of English and French petitions sent from December 1st to
14, 1997: 
                                       524 

       Second week results of the "Talk to each other!"
                 petition to Netscape and Microsoft
                                  first week results 

     1) More than 40% of WebCarta's anglo visitors have sent the
     petition! 

     2) ...but English medias are mute. 

     3) Netscape asks that the petition be moved. 

     4) Reaction at Microsoft. 

                                       * * *

     1) ...according to my server's logs. Here's one of your
     responses: 

     "...I sent URL of petition page to all e-mail addresses I know
     ;)" -Glip 

     Way to go, Cyberanglos! You may have notice I'm doing the same
     with WebCarta, now. As long as the petition will last, all e-mail
     transmitting your cards to your correspondents will also convey
     an invitation to sign the petition. And I hope you have many
     parents and friends 'cause... 

                                       * * *

     2) I haven't seen a line, nor a link in English medias yet.
     (French media do a (very) little better.)

                                       * * *

     3) Nestcape finaly contacted me, through Matt Kovac from its
     Legal Department. In short, he asked that the petition be
     redirected to a new e-mail address he gave me. That was easy to
     do and could have been done days before if he had just asked
     instead of calling Francomedia to have the petition removed from
     the server. 

                                       * * *

     4) Jane, from Microsoft Site Builder Network (where the petitions
     are sent) e-mailed me the same day. At her request, I've added
     space for additional comments under the petition. 

                                       * * *

     'See you next week!

     denise.1

                                     CREDITS

     The hosting and statistics of this petition are graciously
     provided by Francom=E9dia. The original CGI scripts (to send the
     petition) are from Huihong Luo and Lincoln D. Stein. The animated
     chain is a creation of Yves Piguet. 

                             First week results 

     1) Less than 10% of you have signed the petition :-( 

     2) The first media support. 

     3) Netscape asks Francomedia to remove the petition. 

     4) No reaction from Microsoft. 

                                       * * *

     1) Until the media start publishing their first "papers" about
     the petition, you, visitors of COM 1 and WebCarta are almost the
     only ones aware of it. Which tells me that LESS THAN 10% of you
     have sent it! I'm not proud of you. Have web page designers
     worked so well that (you think) you don't suffer from Netscape
     and Internet Explorer's incompatibilities? Or is it that you
     don't care that the Internet now serves private interest before
     common interest? Fortunately, your group is not large enough to
     be representative of all internauts. And also fortunately, the
     petition has received other support... 

                                       * * *

     2) -"The petition is an admirable thing...I sent mine in :-)"
     -Elana Kehoe, Online Assistant Producer, Computer Chronicles/The
     Internet Cafe 

     -"J'applaudis des deux mains et des pieds... Merci!" -Jos=E9 Rossi,
     webmestre de Webdo (I applaud with both hands and feet... Thank
     you!) 

     -"Nous allons y faire suite. Merci et bravo pour cette excellente
     initiative." -Andr=E9 B=E9langer, r=E9dacteur en chef, Magazine M=E9m=
ento
     (We will follow up on it. Thanks and bravo for this excellent
     initiative.) 

     -"I'll take a peek thanks!" - Bill Cullifer, Executive Director,
     The National Association of Webmasters 

     -"Un papier va passer normalement dans le suppl=E9ment multimedia
     de samedi prochain du Monde." -Olivier Puech (A paper should
     appear in Saturday's multimedia pages of Le Monde.) 

     -"Il me fait plaisir de participer a votre petition."
     -Jean-Pierre Cloutier, Les Chroniques de Cyberie (I am glad to
     contribute to your petition.) 

     My warmest thanks to all. 

                                       * * *

     3) Last friday, Matt Kovac, from Netscape Legal Department, has
     asked Claude Leroux, Operation Manager of Francom=E9dia (whose
     server hosts the petition) to remove the petition from the
     server, calling it a SPAM(1) operation. Mister Leroux told me he
     refused to comply because he supports the petition and isn't sure
     it does qualify as SPAM. Well, it seems Netscape itself isn't so
     sure of that since, December 1st, their P.R. Department actualy
     thanked me for the petition, by an e-mail saying: 

          "...Thank you for taking the time to write. We appreciate
          your feedback, as it allows us to not only create a better
          product, but provide better service to our customers. I have
          forwarded your comments..."

     Internal incompatibilities, I guess..:-) But don't expect a thank
     you note from Nestcape anymore; Mister Kovac said they were now
     trashing the petitions without opening them. (But don't let that
     keep you from sending them, on the contrary. If a few hundreds
     unsatisfied users don't matter to Netscape, maybe a few millions
     will have more impact.) 

     (1) SPAM: junk e-mail

                                       * * *

     'See you next week!

     denise.1

-------------------------------------------------------
     Steven L. Clift, Director, Democracies Online
     3454 Fremont Ave S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA   
     Tel: 612-824-3747  E: [email-masked]

  http://www.e-democracy.org/do/ - Democracies Online
  http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ -  Home Page
-------------------------------------------------------

--RAA03861.882486754/riverside.mr.net--

-------------------------------------------------------
     Steven L. Clift, Director, Democracies Online
     3454 Fremont Ave S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA   
     Tel: 612-824-3747  E: [email-masked]

  http://www.e-democracy.org/do/ - Democracies Online
  http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ -  Home Page
-------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Einar Stefferud <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:49:56 -0800

As long as the Fortune 200o buys into the game by not complaining
about the impact of non-interworking web tools, we are in for a long
seige, just was we had to live through with IBM in the 1980's until
enough big customers figured out that they were being taken on an
endless trip around RobinHoods Barn, with endless upgrades and
constant failures of tools to interwork, even within single vendor
product lines.

The real marketing battle cry of the 1990's should be:

	"We Work Better With Everyone; Than Anyone!"

But, we are a long way from there, and seem now to be drifting back
out to sea.

Bill Gates likes to say that he undersands what took IBM down, and
that he is not going to make those same errors.  

Well...  I guess we will just have to wait and see....

Cheers...\Stef

>From your message Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:31:51 +0000:
}
}This is probably not the first "user" campaign, but it does raise the 
}issue of how folks influence the kind of Internet world we work and 
}live in.  As the WC3 and IETF work away, I suppose it is nice to be 
}reminded that open standards work on the Internet is appreciated and 
}important.
}
}Steven Clift
}Democracies Online
}  Noting that how the Internet comes to use its tools for 
}"self-governance" will directly influence how democracies around the 
}world will come to use the these tools for political governance. 
}

---

From: "Phillip H. Griffin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:46:39 -0500

> }world will come to use the these tools for political governance.

Yes, Bill Gates, IBM, etc. make convenient whipping boys, but if
you want to see how the guys looking for a small piece of the pie
feel about interworking, take a look at the PKIX and SMIME efforts.

These guys are working far harder at not interworking than the big
guys. This from the recent SMIME meeting in DC...

"...that using the 1988 syntax rules with enhancements did not 
constitute valid ASN.1 definitions.  Another WG member stated 
that the 1994 syntax rules include the "table" format which 
tightly binds OIDs with ASN.1 definitions (in contrast to 1988 
OID/ANY pairs) that an ASN.1 compiler can process in one pass 
and can check for correctness.  Eric Rescorla said that the "table"
format is not always a positive feature because there are cases 
in which the ASN.1 decoding software can decode the object to the 
point of the OID/ANY pair, but that other modules of the software 
can decode the ANY based on the value of the OID."

The gist is that they wish to violate the ASN.1 (ISO) standards used 
to specify the work. They wish to mix two different ISO standards 
together and claim that they have created interoperable work. Even 
knowing that ASN.1:1988 has numerous documented bugs, and that it is
soon to be withdrawn as a standard, they wish to continue using it 
for their new standards, presumably to protect existing code bases.

The last sentence, which lacks any understanding (and probably 
experience with ASN.1:1994) of the current ASN.1 standards calls 
for the use of the deprecated ANY, which has long ago been dropped 
by ISO due to the interoperability problems it caused. The ANY, of 
course, allows you to 'sneak' in most anything into your implementation 
of a 'standard', especially your own proprietary 'types', and still 
claim compliance to the standard with a straight face.

The PKIX work stems from the same 1980's mindset.

Don't blame Bill Gates for SMIME and PKIX. 

Phil
-- 
Phillip H. Griffin         Griffin Consulting
[email-masked]        ASN.1-SET-Java-Security
919.828.7114               1625 Glenwood Avenue
919.832.7008 [mail]        Raleigh, North Carolina 27608 USA
------------------------------------------------------------
          Visit  http://www.fivepointsfestival.com
------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: [email-masked] (Christian Huitema)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:27:06 -0500 (EST)

Phillip,

The ASN.1 problem that you mention result from an ISO decision.
 Basically, ISO & ITU chose to develop a second version of the ASN.1
language in 1994, and that second version is incompatible with the 1988
version.  They went on to rewrite all the ASN.1 text in their standards
(e.g. X.400, X.500, CMIP) to align it with the new versions.  A nasty side
effect is that by changing the language, they essentially rendered the
existing ASN.1 tools obsolete.  All users of ASN.1 are thus faced with a
dilemma: stick with the 1988 version, or bear the heavy costs of moveing
to the incompatible 1994 version.  That SMIME is faced with this problem
is not surprising.  Making a cogent decision to stick with the 1988
version of ASN.1 is entirely reasonable.

In fact, the ASN.1 story should teach us a lesson about dependance on
other bodies work.  Basically, you are much better of using self contained
definitions (good old BNF) than trying to import a language you don't
control.  RADIUS and DHCP work that way.  If you do import a language, you
had better specify a very simple and stable subset of it, as in e.g. SNMP.
 Or LDAP.

To come back to Stef's point: eventually, the market will decide between
"follow the marketeers and the proprietary products" and "exercize sanity,
insist on interworking capabilities."  The best the IETf can do there is
to produce "good" standards.  This mean standards that are simple, clear,
easy to implement.  Which, by the way, suppose that you steer clear of
ASN.1...

-- 
Christian Huitema
----------
See you at INET'98, Geneva 21-24,July 98 http://www.isoc.org/inet98/

---

From: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:11:29 +0100

I have developed some exercises in ASN.1 (1988 version) which I use
in my courses at Stockholm University and KTH Technical University.
You can find them at URL:
http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme/internet-course/ASN.1-exercises.html

I do not promise that all the exercises are 100 % correct (especially
not exercise 27), if anyone finds a bug, tell me. But my students have
been using them for several years, so most bugs have probably been
removed. I have never tested them with an ASN.1 compiler, however.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Palme <[email-masked]> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme