Subject: BLACK HOLING BLACK HOLED

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:30:13 -0400 (EDT)

James Wilson wrote
> Your right to free speech or freedom of expression ends at 
> the property line of other people's networks.  You have no 
> "right" to traverse their routers and wires.  Whether or 
> not an ISP uses the RBL is their internal matter. Just as 
> the users don't "vote" on what router to use, what NSP to
> choose, or what SNMP/RMON software to implement, they do 
> not have a vote on a site's use of the RBL.  They CAN vote 
> with their business by finding a provider who does not 
> protect their site with the RBL and taking their business 
> to the new provider.

 This is an interesting statement of
 the belief system of many system
 administrators and owners. It does
 not reflect what is in the interests
 of the general public. "We the people"
 have rights that extend to any public
 service whether owned by the state or
 private enterprises. Just as a bus line
 cannot force black people to the back
 or to stand regardless of who owns it,
 just like telephone companies cannot
 tap or block calling (except under
 legal order) so to ISP's that serve a
 general public do not have carte blanc
 to do whatever they like, whenever they
 please.

 RBL, Vixie's infamous "Black Holing",
 whereby servers allegedly responsible for
 so-called spam are cut off by basically
 a network of chums (AKA informer finks),
 is a clear violation of our Freedom to
 communicate and associate. E-mail and
 WWW intercourse is interupted without a
 court instrument or legal framework behind
 it. If you folks really want your twisted
 ideas to be implemented run out and get
 some state legislature to try and pass
 it into law. And then experience the 
 shite-storm of protest when the ACLU
 and every other freedom loving organization
 and individual hoses your basically facist
 ideas into the sewers of history. Cheers,

 Bob Allisat

 Free Community Network _ [email-masked] . http://fcn.net
 http://fcn.net/allisat

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From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:30:13 -0400 (EDT)

James Wilson wrote

 Bob Allisat

---

From: "James Wilson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:00:04 -1000

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Allisat [mailto:[email-masked]]

James Wilson wrote

 of the general public.

"We the people"
 private enterprises.

Show me what law says you can force me to do business with you.  Show me
what law says you can enter my home or office and use my property against my
will.

"We the people" have the right to personal property and services.  "We the
people" have the right to use our equipment as we choose.  "We the people"
reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

This is private enterprise.  An ISP is running a business and has the right
to choose what services they offer and in what manner they prefer.  If an
ISP does not want to transmit or traffic spam that is their choice.  Their
obligation is to deliver the services to their customers.  If their
customers do not like the way the ISP does business they can go elsewhere.

This is free enterprise.  You cannot force an ISP to carry spam any more
than you can force them to run NNTP servers, Chat rooms, or bulk mail
services if they do not want to.  You have no more right to enter their
network against their will than you have to enter their home against their
will.  Both are trespassing.

You have no more right to use their network to do business against their
will than you have to use their telephone for your business if they do not
want you to.  That is theft.  If you take something of mine against my will
you are stealing from me.  If you intrude on my property you are
trespassing.  I have the right to do business with whom I choose and in what
manner I prefer within the guidelines of law.  I have the right to refuse
transit to your or anyone else's traffic if I so choose.

 Just as a bus line

This is not discrimination against a segment of the public based on their
race, religion, sex, age or sexual orientation.  This is NOT about content.
This is about the transfer of cost of doing business to others against their
will.  This is not an issue of Civil Rights.

The Junk Fax Law has held up to court review repeatedly because it is about
the transfer of cost of advertisement to the recipient against their will.
Do you consider it OK if I send you a copy of my 2200 page catalog to your
fax machine and use up all of your paper, toner, and tie up your fax line
for days thereby denying you the right to use your fax machine?  This has
nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with protection from
abuse.

 it.

I don't need a court order to refuse to receive your email or your
connections.  Show me a law and a court case citation which has upheld your
right to force me to let you use my property, equipment and services against
my will.

  If you folks really want your twisted
 ideas to be implemented run out and get
 some state legislature to try and pass
 it into law.

I don't need a law to tell me that I have a right to use my equipment and
services as I choose.  It is private property.

 And then experience the
 shite-storm of protest when the ACLU
 and every other freedom loving organization
 and individual hoses your basically fascist
 ideas into the sewers of history. Cheers,

Facets?  Ad hominem attacks only lessen the credibility of the attacker.

Aloha,

--
James Wilson
"non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"
    William of Ockham (1285-1347/49)

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From: "James Wilson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:00:04 -1000

-----Original Message-----

James Wilson wrote

"We the people"

 Just as a bus line

 And then experience the

Aloha,