Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO ROOT NAME SERVER OPERATORS

From: [email-masked] (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 11:54:11 -0400

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>

    There is only one, reasonable response to these efforts and that is no
    response at all.

Oh, I dunno, I still like the idea of having the IETF mail forwarder tweaked to
preface all messages from Allisat, Phlegming, etc with something like:

	The IETF membership has decided (by a vote of 12,379 to 12) that this
	person is a complete, utter, nitwit who produces specious rants full
	to the brim with "a premium assortment of half-truths, semi-facts,
	quasi-logic, outright falsehoods, simple balderdash", and zany
	conspiracy theories, and we bring you this message only the interests
	of free speech. We recommend that you discard it immediately, without
	reading it, since historical analysis indicates that the probability
	that it contains anything useful is .0027%.

Except I'd make it a little stronger, actually.

	Noel

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From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:45:55 -0400 (EDT)

Noel Chiappa wrote:
+
+   The IETF membership has decided (by a vote of 12,379 to 12) that this
+   person is a complete, utter, nitwit who produces specious rants full
+   to the brim with "a premium assortment of half-truths, semi-facts,
+   quasi-logic, outright falsehoods, simple balderdash", and zany
+   conspiracy theories, and we bring you this message only the interests
+   of free speech. We recommend that you discard it immediately, without
+   reading it, since historical analysis indicates that the probability
+   that it contains anything useful is .0027%.
+
+ Except I'd make it a little stronger, actually.

How 'bout:

   The IETF membership has decided unanimously by a vote of 12,379
   to zero (since those 12 aren't members of it) that this loon
   isn't worthy of an opinion or of capturing what is sometimes
   refered to as the truth and is dissenting against the sacred
   name of Jon like the right kook they are and have always been
   no matter how much events are proving the things they have been
   saying for so long to be just that, truth. We recommend that you
   not only delete it but waste endless reams of space raving about 
   it, dragging discussion away from the valid points being raised
   and smearing the writer of this heresy with all sorts of dumbass
   accusations and insults, since historical analysis indicates
   the probability that distortions, lies and wrong headed ideas
   make up 99.9983% of conventional wisdom at any particular era
   or more particularly in any odd and particularly closed sub-culture
   like the IETF, the Hale-Bopp-ites, the Moonies, Church of
   Scientology and so on, ah-men and in Postel we trust.

 Bob Allisat

 Free Community Network _ [email-masked] . http://fcn.net
 http://fcn.net/allisat

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From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:45:55 -0400 (EDT)

Noel Chiappa wrote:
+

How 'bout:

 Bob Allisat

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From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:01:45 -0400

Noel Chiappa writes:
> Oh, I dunno, I still like the idea of having the IETF mail forwarder
> tweaked to preface all messages from Allisat, Phlegming, etc with
> something like:
> 

Wouldn't be too hard to do that, technically. It might actually make
some sense.

Perry

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From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:01:45 -0400

Perry

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 01:17:42 +0800

(since this attempts to focus on a legitimate IETF issue, I've pruned the
non-ietf addresses.)

At 01:01 PM 10/12/98 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
>> tweaked to preface all messages ...
>

I believe that Harald Alvestrant has shown us the right way to pursue these
sorts of mailing list variants.  That is, leave the main list open and
unfettered.  It is the official list of the relevant IETF activity.

Create a subsidiary re-distribution list that is under non-IETF (i.e.,
unofficial) control and exercises whatever filtering rules its operator
wishes to impart.  One could imagine a small tie-in to the official list,
such as an offer to list all open-subscription redistributors on the
relevant IETF page, so that those wishing to subscribe to a controlled
redistributor can find out about it.

There might also be merit in formal specification of a list-member feedback
mechanism which permits the feedback to be used for modifying the filtering
behavior.  This is worth a standard because the list members need a
standard way to provide the feedback to the list control engine.  That's a
protocol.

d/

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dave Crocker                                         Tel: +1(408)246 8253
<mailto:[email-masked]>                        675 Spruce Drive
                                                  Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA
Brandenburg Consulting
<http://www.brandenburg.com>                         Tel: +60(19)3299 445
                                              Post Office Box 296, U.P.M.
Fax: +1(408)246 8253                     Serdang, Selangor 43400 MALAYSIA

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 01:17:42 +0800

d/

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From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:43:44 -0400 (EDT)

Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> Wouldn't be too hard to do that, technically. It might actually
> make some sense.

 Here's the notice every message
 from Perry should be prefaced mit:

*  This message is from Perry E. Metzger who, along with his
*  buddies Bob Shaw and Dave Crocker, with their unique blend
*  of venom, insults and disinformation, almost singlehandedly
*  sank, wrecked and otherwise destroyed CORE, The GTLD-MoU,
*  PAC and POC washing the million bucks certain gullible 
*  companies entrusted to their dubious and, so it turn out,
*  utterly incompetant care. The Metzger family motto: "Pot,
*  Kettle, Black" should have been foremost in his mind. Un-
*  fortunatly it was not. That and the rumours flying around
*  About the Metzger's role in blowing the whistle on Eugene
*  helped seal his fate as the great communicator, mis. In
*  Postel we trust! Ah-men.int!

 Bob Allisat

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:43:44 -0400 (EDT)

Bob Allisat

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:13:52 -0400

> standard way to provide the feedback to the list control engine.  That's a

http://www.cs.umn.edu/Research/GroupLens

I haven't used it, but current releases of Gnus for Emacs/XEmacs apparently
have hooks to use it.

-- 
				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:13:52 -0400

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From: "mark.paton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:14:55 +0100

Dave,
Although a great idea, this kind of enforces the Jeff Williams and Bob Allisats of this world paranoia about the "Finks" trying to subverse our community, lets use a series of feed back research from the community to determine how we can legitimately modify the filtring behaviour and not move into closed user groups that plan plot and overthrow the world.  This kind of comment is starting to sound like the loonies that you are trying to omit from the decision process.  I cannot beleive that this is what you want??  LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE.  I always have had the greatest respect for you and the work that you have done, please don't shatter my illusions.  The community should have the loony element left in, this both serves as a metod of validating and sanity checking the process.

I think we are all starting to get a little paraniod about this and need to develop a thicker skin, I hope that we had left the sticks and stones mentality behind us at infant school, but if some wish to continue this then that is their problem.  Our problem is to continue the development and enhancment for the greater good.  Keep this in mind and the sticks and stones boys will soon grow tired of abuse and start to provide some good input (hopefully).

Keep up the good work and if I can be of any use in any way, then ASK.

Mark Paton
MNSL
	"Open Systems Networks for Open Minded People"

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Crocker [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 12 October 1998 18:18
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Mandatory controls for optional lists

d/

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From: "mark.paton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:14:55 +0100

Dave,

Mark Paton
MNSL

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Crocker [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 12 October 1998 18:18
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Mandatory controls for optional lists

d/

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:54:42 +0800

Mark,

At 07:14 AM 10/13/98 +0100, mark.paton wrote:
>Although a great idea, this kind of enforces the Jeff Williams and Bob 
>Allisats of this world paranoia about the "Finks" trying to subverse our 

In effect, that gives such people control over the rest of us, since it
means we take no action to reduce the noise they create, for fear of their
bad feelings.  An alternative approach, of course, is to focus on
productive work and what it takes to achieve it.  

Productive work requires focus.  In many engineering realms, including that
of global standards, it also requires debate and diversity.  It is
important to value the benefit of the debate, as well as the need for
focus.  We must not confuse diversity of opinion with injection of noise.
Contrariwise, we must not pretend that noise is really legitimate
expression of diverse opinion.

I hope you get my point.  The need for filters is to keep out the noise.
If those generating the noise choose to interpret the reasons for the
filters incorrectly, that is their problem, not ours.

Similarly, excessive use of filters is our problem and not theirs.  Life is
balance (tra la...)

>I think we are all starting to get a little paraniod about this and need to 
>develop a thicker skin, I hope that we had left the sticks and stones 

Thicker skins help to some extent.  If everyone had a sufficiently thick
skin, then PERHAPS it would be enough, but I doubt it.  The reason is that
the other problem is a tendency to respond to the noise makers, thereby
consuming valuable energy, bandwidth and time.  This effectively becomes a
deprivation of service attack from the noise makers.  

Unfortunately, it is quite effective, even if people have thick skins.
Notice, for example, how much time and bandwidth the current discussion is
taking.  Multiply it, since the problem is increasingly present on EVERY
open discussion list.

d/

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dave Crocker                                         Tel: +60(19)3299 445
<mailto:[email-masked]>                    P.O. Box 296, U.P.M.
                                                  Serdang, Selangor 43400
Brandenburg Consulting                                           MALAYSIA
<http://www.brandenburg.com>
                                                     Tel: +1(408)246 8253
Fax: +1(408)246 8253              675 Spruce Dr., Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:54:42 +0800

Mark,

d/