Subject: Re: Walt Whitman said it better than I can.

From: Vince Fuller <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 8:59:12 PDT

> I wondered how long it would take for people to try to canonize Postel the
> then use this to drive home flawed, paternalistic, insular and monopolistic
> policies.
> 
> I was not disappointed.

And neither was I, nor I expect the rest of the community, unsurprised by
the promptness of your crass spew. Congratulations, Karl, you've truely
outdone yourself in what appearst to be a paranoia-inspired effort to besmirch
the reputation of a true Internet hero. Of all people, he least deserves this
sort of posthumous crap. I try to avoid posting on NANOG because of the
extremely poor signal-to-noise ration, but this time, I can't just sit and
watch this.

I did not know Jon well but have grown to respect him, his dedication, and
his judgement during my 16+ years of involvement with the deployment of
various pieces of the 'net. I felt honored when Jon first greeted me by name,
not so many IETF's ago; it made me feel that I had finally "arrived" after
being a "newbie" in the Internet community for so many years.

Jon Postel did more for the Internet community than virtually all of the
combined wannabe "experts" that inhabit this foul domain known as the NANOG
list. The varied accusations of arrogance and monopolistic intent are simple
lunacy, apparent to anyone who has even taken a cursory glance at all of
the hard work that Jon put in, all in the name of "doing the right thing".

I hope that wherever Jon is now that he is still able to observe the
blossoming and growth of the seeds he planted even if he is no longer able
to actively tend them with such dedication. That crop will nourish and
outlive not only all of us but will provide essential sustinance for many
generations of "netizens" yet to come.

Thank you and bless you, Jon.

	--Vince

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:42:25 -0500

> extremely poor signal-to-noise ration, but this time, I can't just sit and

Let me shed a crocodile tear.

Really.

Let's look at reality here folks.  Jon was an incredible engineer.  No
argument. I give the man his due there - that much is simply without
dispute, IMHO, and there is no reason to try to impugn anything there.

However, in my opinion he was a *disasterous* politician and, in reference
to his political actions, WAS NOT A SCIENTIST by ANY description of the term.

The "clue meter" games that people like to play on this medium are
*disgusting*.  They are dishonest, incompetent, corrupt, insular and a 
whole bunch of other ugly names that I won't bother using.  

Far worse, they insult the very concept of scientific inquiry and conquest -
the basic principle that regardless of how many times you were "right"
before, YOU MUST PROVE YOUR POINT EACH AND EVERY TIME down the road.

This is a BASIC premise in all peer-reviewed journals, in doctoral thesis
work, and in every other tenet upon which we lay the name SCIENCE.

It is HERE that I believe Postel lost the right to put the title "PhD" 
after his name.

During the last few years with the DNS "wars" and such, we heard many
protests about how "5,000 TLDs will break the system", "you can't have
multiple competitive address registries; it'll never work", and similar
exhortations - all from people who claimed to have a "clue".

NONE of these assertions in support of restrictions on free commercial
activity were EVER substantiated.  Postel challenged NOT ONE OF THEM, and 
in fact RATIFIED several, without ANY - I repeat - ANY - evidence.

In fact, it is known that several of those assertions were not only made
without evidence, the people making them *should have known* they were
false!  

And false they were and are.

The road to hell and history is littered with people who accepted as axiom
the proclamations of others regarding matters for which they could produce
no factual basis.  Names on the list include Adolph Hitler, Pinochet,
Mussolini, Ceasar, Mao, Stalin and countless others.  Yes, that list is
intentionally inflammatory.  Deal with it.

I and many others have long called for the standards of strict proof - 
not proof by assertion or proof by "clue meter", to be applied to any
governance situation on the Internet which purports to, or acts to, 
remove, stifle, inhibit or prevent competitive market entry and activity.

Those calls have fallen on deaf ears at the altar of the IANA time and time
again, and I have and do hold Mr. (not Dr.) Postel fully accountable for 
same.

Now, with its director gone to meet someone at the real altar, perhaps we
shall have the inquiry DEMANDED by science, and those organizations,
structures, and institutions that do not meet the test of strict proof will
be dismantled and relegated to the scrap-heap of Internet history.

Construct your posthumus accolades around the protocol work, and you will
find acceptance and unanimity.  Construct it around, or base it upon, any of
the political activities of the last three years and you'll draw loud rounds
of bronx cheers from this side of the aisle.

--
-- 
Karl Denninger ([email-masked]) http://www.mcs.net/~karl
I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give
up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization.

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:42:25 -0500

Really.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:18:06 -0700

Karl,

In case you haven't noticed, Jon Postel died.  I believe that at this
point, the following applies

IF YOU CAN'T SAY SOMETHING NICE THEN SHUT UP!

I for one, could care less what you have to say...  It is just like
you to try to get in the last word...  
---CJ

    From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
    Subject: The Road to Hell is paved with clue meters

    Really.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:18:06 -0700

Karl,

    
    
    Really.

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:30:49 -0500

> IF YOU CAN'T SAY SOMETHING NICE THEN SHUT UP!

And the band plays on with the next sacrifice at the altar of "proof by
assertion and clue meter".....

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:30:49 -0500

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:53:24 -0700

Karl:

I know that you weren't much for Jon, or for anything else that resembles
order in the Internet. You have made that perfectly clear on a number of
occasions.

But you have phenomenally poor timing in what you said today. I would be
very appreciative if you would stay off the list for a while. Quite a few
people are grieving, some quite openly, and comments of the class you made
are - besides being IMHO untrue - wildly inappropriate. 

If you were to die, we would respect your memory and honor you and your
family, regardless of whether we agreed with your viewpoints. Please give
us the same courtesy and respect.

Fred

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:53:24 -0700

Karl:

Fred

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:57:43 -0500

> order in the Internet. You have made that perfectly clear on a number of

More lies.

> very appreciative if you would stay off the list for a while.

Not a chance.

> Quite a few

Oh really?

And the attempts by others to ramrod political agendas down the throat of
the users of the Internet on the back of someone who passed on is
appropriate?

Your bigotry is showing.

The standards of scientific inquiry do not rise and fall based upon the
name of the person making the assertions.  Yet that is precisely what has
happened the last several years in the DNS and IP space political arena.

> us the same courtesy and respect.

Several of your ilk have already made it clear that they would do no such
thing.

---

From: Karl Denninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:57:43 -0500

More lies.

Not a chance.

Oh really?

Your bigotry is showing.

---

From: Mark Boolootian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:13:32 -0700 (PDT)

>no factual basis.  Names on the list include Adolph Hitler, 

Godwin's Law: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a 
comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition
in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever 
mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in 
progress. Godwin's Law thus guarantees the existence of an upper bound on 
thread length in those groups.

---

From: Mark Boolootian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:13:32 -0700 (PDT)

---

From: Tripp Lilley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:02:26 -0400 (EDT)

> assertion and clue meter".....

Sir, politics aside, this is about basic human respect. You clearly have
none. I appreciate that it raises your ire to hear Postel praised so.
Please, though, out of respect for our feelings and grief, keep a tight
lid on your jealousy until this event is not so fresh in our minds. To do
otherwise is the pinnacle of crassness.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tripp Lilley, Innovative Workflow Engineering, Inc. ([email-masked])
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             "Some stupid bugs have been replaced by newer ones."
             Heiko Eibfeldt in 'The Linux SCSI programming HOWTO'

---

From: Tripp Lilley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:02:26 -0400 (EDT)

---

From: "David R. Conrad" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:42:45 -0700

[Karl's admittedly inflamatory drivel deleted]

I suppose it isn't surprising that Karl Denninger chooses to try to
assassinate the character of Jon Postel after Jon's untimely passing, I
guess it says something about Karl's personality that he feels such
comments appropriate.  However, out of respect for Jon, I'll limit my
comments on Karl's infantile diatribe to this note and merely add Karl's
name to my "delete immediately upon receipt" email filter.  Instead of
responding with flames to Karl's attempts at character assassination, I
would encourage others to implement similar filters as well.

Having been priveledged to work under Jon during my tenure at APNIC, I was
and am 1000% confident of Jon's motivations, intentions, and understanding
of the implications of the various policies the IANA implemented.  While I
may not have agreed with all his decisions, I had and have the utmost
respect for his reasoning in reaching those decisions.  Jon was always
focused on the long term, the scalable, and what was in the best interests
of the Internet as a whole, not what could make the most money for an
individual -- such focus annoys the venal and rapacious among the Internet
communities, thus the "DNS wars" inflicted upon the Internet.

Suffice it to say that the outpouring of emotions of loss with the passing
of Jon Postel are indicative of the esteem he was held by those who knew
and/or worked with him.  I have a sneaking suspicion that the emotions
expressed with the passing of, say, Karl Denninger, would be significantly
different.

Regards,
-drc

---

From: "David R. Conrad" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:42:45 -0700

Regards,
-drc

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:25:00 -0700

Are we done with this thread yet? I'm having a really hard time staying at
work today, feeling as I feel and reading this tripe.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:25:00 -0700