Subject: Desktop DNS = Intergalactic Teleportation? NO!

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:26:33 -0500 (EST)

Richard Towle <[email-masked]> writes:
> Maybe I am idealistic but I believe BOB has the Kernel
> for a new idea. We should use this forum to nurture these new ideas,

My old friend Perry Metzger writes:
+ If Bob had any technical competence and had an actual workable
+ proposal to bring to the table, that would be one thing, but in
+ fact what we are dealing with is someone who posts about thirty 
+ worthless messages to the mailing list a day and simply disrupts
+ the ability of legitimate work to get done.
+ 
+ Bob isn't a technologist trying to get a good technical proposal
+ listened to. He's just a person with nothing better to do than to
+  post divisive messages faster than anyone can reply to them.

Richard Towle <[email-masked]>:
> Using the talent that is obviously participating in this forum, I would
> hope that a solid and real concept could be produced, not stepped on and
> laughed at.

Perry Metzger concludea:
+ He isn't proposing anything that could be implemented. He's just
+ frothing and being disruptive.
+ 
+ Let me put it to you this way: if a loon showed up at a physics
+ conference frothing about how intergalactic teleportation was the
+ most important thing the physics community could be working on,
+ and wouldn't shut up, would it be their duty to "use the talent at
+ that forum" to work on intergalactic teleportation? If said person
+ shouted during all paper presentations, would he be someone who
+ deserved "nurturing" or being thrown out on his ass?

 The proposal I am floating here is intensely doable. Quoting
 Richard Walker <[email-masked]>
=
= I think that Bob's system could be designed, amd implemented, with no
= more fuss than the current system.  It would involve defining a
= protocol, and wrapping it into every client OS that would exist on the
= internet.
= 
= The problem I see is that, through such radical decentralization, you
= would actually enforce a new kind of conformity that, in my opinion,
= would be even more draconian and controlling than the current system. 
= Or worse, you would introduce rogue elements who would easily be able to
= break the system into virtual anarchy.
= 
= Also, the 'net is not strongly connected enough (yet) to actually
= support such a decentralized system.
= 
= This is a textbook example of theory vs. practicality/reality...  once
= again technology far outpaces evolution.

 In my opinion we are all capable of handling the concept of
 devolving DNS to the desktop. I give people much more credit 
 especially when their own, personal and professional communications
 are concerned. D_DNS addesses real-time problems we are all
 encountering at all levels of expertise and capabilities. We
 are ready to take control.

 As for my status as an engineer in the traditional sense of the
 word I am not one at all. However, I have always worked in close
 co-operation and dialogue with highly gifted technical partners.
 Over the years I have acquired knowledge and developed paradigms 
 and solutions as a result of my many interactions with some of
 the most brilliant minds on the net.

 I make no apologies for all of the above. This forum is centred
 around disourse on the infrastructure and architecture of this
 computer network. I will participate to the best of my abilities
 in my own unique manner. Perhaps we could move together on some
 of the ideas I have presented or on others I may share in future.
 The current structure is in sore need of revolutionary change.
 I hope I can be part of this change.

 Respectfully,

 Bob Allisat

 Free Community Network _ [email-masked]
 http://fcn.net _ http://fcn.net/allisat = http://robin.fcn.net
 [email-masked]

---

From: "Michael H. Warfield" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:07:00 -0500 (EST)

> > for a new idea. We should use this forum to nurture these new ideas,

	He (Bob) may have a dream or an ideal.  I'm not sure I would dignify
it further, yet...  And the "yet" depends on him and him alone.

> > hope that a solid and real concept could be produced, not stepped on and

	I think a lot of us are waiting for exactly that, a solid and real
concept, and Bob has yet to produce it.

>  Richard Walker <[email-masked]>

	Proposal?  I haven't seen a proposal yet.  All I've see in some
wistful musing and complaining against central authority.  I haven't
seen anything I can code or implement, yet.

> = protocol, and wrapping it into every client OS that would exist on the

	Let's see a system designed and a protocol defined.  Don't ask us
for it.  You want it, let's see it.

> = break the system into virtual anarchy.

	Someone has to arbitrate disputes.  That implies some sort of
resolution authority.  Ultimately, I think you are absolutely right.  It
will degenerate and stratify into something even more authoritarian and rigid
than what we have now or it will disentegrate into anarchy or worse.  With
no mechanisms in place to dictate conflict resolution or to regulate the
anarchy, that is unavoidable.  What you end up with is an unstable chaotic
state that must ultimately resolve itself into some sort of stable state.
And then we are back exactly where we started off at, with some central
authority.  Maybe better than before, maybe worse, but not this
decentralized peace and harmony that Bob dreams of.

> = support such a decentralized system.

	No matter how connected it is, it can never become totally
decentralized (distributed, maybe, decentralized never) because of the
conflict resolution issues.  If anything, as the network becomes more
and more connected, the need for conflict resolution becomes greater
and the ability to become decentralized and less hierarchial becomes
less and less practical.

>  are ready to take control.

	Proposal?

	As far as your statement "I give people much more credit especially
when their own, personal and professional communications", I have to wonder
what drugs you are on.  You can't even achieve your own goal within the
microcosm of this list or the IETF.  You expect things to get all nicey
nicey and people to play better in the macrocosm outside?  You expect people
to be MORE cooperative in the outside world where vested interests are
far more varied?  You have got to be dreaming!

>  the most brilliant minds on the net.

	This is begining to sound like the Dilbert cartoon where Ratbert
proposes an outlandish idea.  Then the PHB (Pointy Haired Boss) says
"That's a great idea.  Get to it."  Ratbert replies "I'm just an
idea rat, I don't do implimentations".

>  I hope I can be part of this change.

	So far, I haven't seen any concrete ideas.  They have mostly been
statements about how everything is busted and how there is the utopia
where everyone works in harmony (you can't even get the participants in
this list to agree - where is your conflict resolution built in to this
thing?) and we can get rid of central authority (who decides when people
don't agree?).  I see some people making remarks about "that sounds good"
but I don't see solutions leading to an implimentation.

	I may be a newcomer to this group but I've been an engineer for 
over a quarter of a century and I'm sorry but "I'm idea rat" doesn't cut
it, Bob.  You can't get away with "It's my idea, but I'm not an engineer
so you all figure out how to make it work."

	Let's have a proposal.  A REAL PROPOSAL.  Don't give us "I'm not an
engineer", give us some SPECS than can be implimented!  Let's have some real
ideas instead of pipe dreams.  It's your idea, let's have a concrete proposal!
We are not here to do your work for you.   Your idea, you work out the
details and come up with a proposal.

	Other people have said this, some in more respectful terms, some in
less, but...  Fish or cut bait...

	I've been lurking on this list for months watching some of the
fur fly.  I'm sure some people will accuse me of some bias against you
at this point.  They may even be right.  But that has come from reading
your posts and forming an opinion about you based on your own writings.
No one else has influenced my opionion on you at this point.

	As an engineer, I'm still waiting to see something of some substance
which could be acted on.  So far, it still amounts to blue-smoke and
magic as if you expect the rest of us to pick up your pipe dream and
just magically make it so...

>  http://fcn.net _ http://fcn.net/allisat = http://robin.fcn.net

	Excuse the interruption...  Returning to lurk mode...

	Regards,
	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  [email-masked]
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

---

From: "Michael H. Warfield" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:07:00 -0500 (EST)

Proposal?

	Regards,
	Mike