Subject: Re: Fwd: "La Loi de l'Internet" 19+20 Mars 1999

From: John Ioannidis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 02:49:49 -0500 (EST)

Vernon Schryver <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Who can afford to use a free commercial ISP but not $20/month?  How do
> they afford the telephone, modem and computer?  Don't many people use
> those free services by paying $20/month for a real account and then
> "signing in over the web"?

I was just composing a message with that same question.

More to the point, anyone in a position to contribute to the Internet
ENGINEERING process (which is presumably what this list should be
about) would be affiliated with a university, research organization,
vendor, consulting firm, or other corporate entity, with a real domain
name.  If this observation constitutes elitism, so be it!

I'm sure there are smart people on the net who do not fit this
profile; there also are lots of fora for them to express their
opinions -- it's just that the IETF happens NOT to be one of them!

/ji

PS: Just for kicks, grep through the I-D and RFC archives.  There
isn't a single one of them from bigfoot.com, hotmail.com,
rocketmail.com, or yahoo.com (to mention just four "free" email
providers).  I think any comments would be superfluous.

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From: Patrick McManus <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:46:01 -0500 (EST)

In a previous episode John Ioannidis said...

:: name.  If this observation constitutes elitism, so be it!

rfc 2418, 1.0:

   The IETF is a large, open community of network designers, operators,
   vendors, users, and researchers concerned with the Internet and the
   technology used on it.

[..]

  There is no formal membership in the IETF.  Participation is open to
   all.  This participation may be by on-line contribution, attendance
   at face-to-face sessions, or both.  Anyone from the Internet
   community who has the time and interest is urged to participate in
   IETF meetings and any of its on-line working group discussions.
   Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than
   by formal representatives of organizations.

so please stop. This just hurts to listen to. Noise is the price we
pay for empowering opportunity for all without pre-judgment. In a free
society individual opportunity is perhaps the greatest right. It'd be
a cheap price to pay at 10 times the spam.

:: Vernon Schryver <[email-masked]> wrote:
:: 
:: > Who can afford to use a free commercial ISP but not $20/month?  How do
:: > they afford the telephone, modem and computer?  Don't many people use
:: > those free services by paying $20/month for a real account and then
:: > "signing in over the web"?
:: 

I have substantial experience with public libraries. At least in my
region of the world the libraries are providing internet connected
computers free of charge to the public. But each library I've worked
with hasn't had the technical means to provide accounts for their
patrons in their own domain (although I know of 1 that wants to, and
I've _heard_ of another that has).. even their staff accounts are
usually pop/imap based on their ISPs server. They encourage their
patrons to use a web based mail system as a solution.. they even demo
them in their tutorials!

In a previous episode John Ioannidis said...
:: 
:: More to the point, anyone in a position to contribute to the Internet
:: ENGINEERING process (which is presumably what this list should be
:: about) would be affiliated with a university, research organization,
:: vendor, consulting firm, or other corporate entity, with a real domain

The potential of the public library as a great leveler of education and
opportunity for all citizens is one of the things I'm most proud of
about our society. It's very purpose is to provide a place where those
who are not affiliated with 'a university, research organization,
vendor, consulting firm', etc.. can trade individual effort and
intellectual capital for the same kind of information. It may be the
most important line preventing the institutionalization of haves vs
have nots. In the end that's good for all of us, even those already
stuck in the ivory tower that don't have immediate use for its services.

The library is just an example of a potential manifestation of
this. And potential is the key word. Even if your assertion that 100%
of current hotmail traffic to IETF lists is content-free that does not
provide justification for prejudice against future unknown contributors.

:: I'm sure there are smart people on the net who do not fit this
:: profile; there also are lots of fora for them to express their
:: opinions -- it's just that the IETF happens NOT to be one of them!

2418 would seem to disagree with you. Contributions are to be
technical to be germane but are not required to be
expert. For example, implementation reports are very important to the
standardization process. Do you really need to be an expert to
implement the newest codified SNMP MIB, or write a CGI that parses
multipart/form-data (2388)?

-Pat

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From: Patrick McManus <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:46:01 -0500 (EST)

rfc 2418, 1.0:

[..]

-Pat

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:50:23 -0800

>name.  If this observation constitutes elitism, so be it!

I hope you read McManus' response carefully.  It is well written and accurate.

Periodically, a working group gets stymied with a problem that is solved by 
a random lurker who had no reason for being on the mailing list other than 
being interested.  No training, no job mandate, nothing.  Just interested.

If you want the fine-grained participation filtering that permits only 
authorized professionals, a number of other standards groups are 
available.  The IETF model is to be entirely open.  It has major 
benefits... and yes, real costs.  However, change the costs and you change 
the benefits.

d/

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Dave Crocker                                         Tel: +1 408 246 8253
Brandenburg Consulting                               Fax: +1 408 273 6464
675 Spruce Drive                             <http://www.brandenburg.com>
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA                 <mailto:[email-masked]>

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:50:23 -0800

d/