Subject: Re: (!) Vint Cerf designing network for solar system (!)

From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:22:31 -0500

In message <Pine.LNX.3.93.990312080533.13373A-100000@marietta>, Bob Allisat wri
tes:

> > Please drop this conversation as of now.
> 
>  No. In fact as of now I will assume a
>  leadership role in the blessed Internet
>  Community and tell you to drop your
>  attempts to stifle debate as of now.

You're quite welcome to assert any leadership you wish.  But do it on
your own mailing list, not ours.  You have no more right to abuse the
IETF list than you have to right to give a political speech during, say,
a theatrical performance.  We certainly would not deny you the right
to organize your own group or theatrical performance; you can then set its
policies, lead it, and see who -- if anyone -- follows.

---

From: Eric Germann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:00:10 -0500

See, the problem is he can't afford to host a mailing list and he has a
historical habit of getting kicked off ISP's.  Then again, if he had a job
or contributed to the community instead of whining incessantly ...

I'm sure a whole lot of people will follow the Canadian Pied Piper in his
leadership role.  Funny how he whines about American politics and funding
when he isn't even in the US.

For those who wish to find Bob's past rants and the cyclical view of them I
kindly refer you to

http://answerpointe.cctec.com/query/allisat.asp

Fred, I move for another two week banishment for Bob.

Eric

>policies, lead it, and see who -- if anyone -- follows.

==========================================================================
  Eric Germann                                        CCTec
  [email-masked]                                 Van Wert, OH 45891
  http://www.cctec.com                                Ph:  419 968 2640
                                                      Fax: 419 968 2641
         Network Design, Connectivity & System Integration Services 
                     A Microsoft Solution Provider

---

From: Eric Germann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:00:10 -0500

Eric

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:29:59 -0800

>Fred, I move for another two week banishment for Bob.

I will add four, following the exponential backoff algorithm, following the
end of his current banishment - which is next week.

If you look at Bob's mail, he is sending from another than he used to. He
has obviously altered his behavior in order to bypass Steve Coya's filter
(CNRI/Foretec has been addressing that issue today), and will probably do
so again.

Trust me, the best solution is for each person on the list to put in a
filter to discard his messages. That's what we have been recommending for a
long time, and ultimately each person has to be responsible for what he is
willing to receive. We can filter the IETF list, but any simple filter can
be defeated by a sufficiently motivated attacker.

I think the robustness principle in this context reads:
   "Be conservative in what you reply to and liberal in what you filter".

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:29:59 -0800

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 03:43:03 -0500 (EST)

Steve Bellovin wrote:
? You're quite welcome to assert any leadership you wish.  But do it on
? your own mailing list, not ours.  You have no more right to abuse the
? IETF list than you have to right to give a political speech during, say,
? a theatrical performance.  We certainly would not deny you the right
? to organize your own group or theatrical performance; you can then set
? its policies, lead it, and see who -- if anyone -- follows.

 It's my list as well Mr. Bellovin. And I'm discussing
 issues that directly effect the futue of this military
 inspired, commercially twisted and future challenged
 communications network. And, by the response of other
 members of this list I'd say they are as interested in
 these discussions as I am. Quite trying to define what
 is or is not appropriate for members of this list to
 discuss. Being cop of the world is niether a flattering
 nor a realistic ambition. 

 Bob Allisat

 Free Community Network _ [email-masked]
 http://fcn.net _ http://fcn.net/allisat
 http://robin.fcn.net

---

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 03:43:03 -0500 (EST)

Steve Bellovin wrote:

 Bob Allisat

---

From: Balaji Venkat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:09:20 -0600

Dear Mr.Allisat,

The purpose of this list would be better served if such rantings were 
shelved and answers to the challenges facing the internet are addressed.
The fact that you are able to communicate your views via this medium to the 
entire world is sufficient evidence enough that the so called "military
inspired, commercially twisted and future challenged communications 
network" WORKS. If you can give us more concrete (with more technical content
in it) proposals for an alternative communications network through which
yours and other's views can be aired minus the bottlenecks that exist in
the current one, it would be indeed well received. I beg you to come up
with these before spamming our mail boxes with your thoughts on why the
current network or the organizations
that administer it do not meet your expectations.

balaji venkat

HCL-Technologies India Pvt. Ltd.
Networking products division.
Chennai,
India.

---

From: Balaji Venkat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:09:20 -0600

Dear Mr.Allisat,

balaji venkat

---

From: Reto Lichtensteiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:12:58 -0500 (EST)

Fred Baker wrote:

<> Trust me, the best solution is for each person on the list to put in a
<> filter to discard his messages. That's what we have been recommending for a
<> long time, and ultimately each person has to be responsible for what he is
<> willing to receive. We can filter the IETF list, but any simple filter can
<> be defeated by a sufficiently motivated attacker.

For those of you who use, or can use, procmail these are the filters I've
had in place for a while.  I've been blissfully ignorant of the initial
stages of most of these "discussions":

  :0
  * ^From.*@*ietf.org
  {
    BITBUCKET=/dev/null

    # Anything crossposted here is likely to be flameage
    :0
    * ^(To|CC):.*(domain-policy@|gtld-discuss@[email-masked])
    $BITBUCKET

    # Anything from these guys is unwelcome -- at best
    :0
    * ^(From|CC).*(karl@(mcs|denninger)|JimFleming@unety|bob@fcn)
    $BITBUCKET
  }

Reto
-- 
R A Lichtensteiger	 [email-masked] -or- [email-masked]
			 http://www.meitca.com/ITA/People/rali
    "Yes, you're doing things right, but are you doing the right things?"
    "Nope.  I'm just doing something dumb fast."

---

From: Reto Lichtensteiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:12:58 -0500 (EST)

Fred Baker wrote:

  :0
  * ^From.*@*ietf.org
  {
    BITBUCKET=/dev/null

Reto

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:06:20 -0500 (EST)

This message is entirely too reminiscant of Der Fuhrer's speech in Berlin
in 1937 or so, during the height of the book burnings...

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:06:20 -0500 (EST)

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:55:18 -0800

>in 1937 or so, during the height of the book burnings...

Your comment is equivalent to claiming that freedom of speech extends to 
yelling "fire" in a crowded theater (when there is no fire.)

d/

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dave Crocker                                         Tel: +1 408 246 8253
Brandenburg Consulting                               Fax: +1 408 273 6464
675 Spruce Drive                             <http://www.brandenburg.com>
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA                 <mailto:[email-masked]>

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:55:18 -0800

d/

---

From: Eric Germann <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:39:08 -0500

>in 1937 or so, during the height of the book burnings...

Nice analogy, given the heritage of my name.  For some of those who may
have missed it, the official hall of rhetoric for Fleming and Allisat is at 

http://answerpointe.cctec.com/query/fleming.asp

respectively.  Read their posts and decide whether to burn their books or
the IETF's.  Jim is an agent provacateur.  The IETF community has every
right to reject postings from those who incessantly contribute nothing but
noise to the list.  These two take the cake.  Read the NANOG archives for
details.  In fact the search engine above will list their musings from both
lists.

Read their history, then decide before pronouncing judgements, especially
race based analogies.

Eric

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From: Eric Germann <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:39:08 -0500

Eric

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:49:58 -0500 (EST)

hrm...maybe so...
well, i did say it was reminiscant....not exact...
comparing Fred Baker to Hitler might have been a little harsh
R Grant Mcdonald

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:49:58 -0500 (EST)

hrm...maybe so...

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:57:11 -0500 (EST)

My apologies to Eric Germann...
but again, who's to say i was insulting you? :)
well, beyond that, i like this place...i will try to keep
the heat down in the future...
look for some technical stuff on topic from me in the near future
thanks
R Grant McDonald

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:57:11 -0500 (EST)