Subject: Re: Proposal: Mailing list archive requirement(s)

From: Scott Bradner <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:17:29 -0400 (EDT)

> it is time for the IETF formally REQUIRE that working group mailing lists
> be archived, with web access to individual messages.

archiving is required by RFC2026 (required for an audit trail on the
standards process)

Scott

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From: Scott Bradner <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:17:29 -0400 (EDT)

Scott

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From: Dan Kohn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:43:54 -0700

To make a specific proposal, I think we're suggesting that BCP 25, RC
2418 <http://www.normos.org/ietf/bcp/bcp25.txt> should be updated to add
additional requirements to the working group mailing lists in section
2.2.

I would suggest that working group mailing lists have the following
additional requirements:

1) The mailing list should support standard -request commands for
subscription requests.

2) The mailing list should have a web-based archive that supports
searching and threading.

3) The mailing list should also archive the messages in original rfc822
message format or in standard Unix mailbox format.

		- dan
--
Daniel Kohn <mailto:[email-masked]>
+1-425-519-7968 (voice)   602-6223 (fax)
http://www.dankohn.com

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From: Dan Kohn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:43:54 -0700

- dan

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From: Paul Hoffman / IMC <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:51:17 -0700

>2) The mailing list should have a web-based archive that supports

I'm fine with threading, but I suggest that we don't mandate searching. As 
veterans of the apps area can attest to, the IETF is not good at defining 
"searching". If you rely on any search engine for email lists, you are 
likely to be disappointed by the results. I believe that getting the 
text-only archive and grepping is much more reliable. There is also the 
fact that good search engines cost money and take more maintenance than 
threading archives.

Having said that, I'm about to add searching to the lists IMC hosts. But I 
consider this experimental, not a service anyone should rely on.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium

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From: "Tim Kehres" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:04:14 +0800

>The ip-filter list which is a nice archive is a different example.
>http://false.net/ipfilter is using Hypermail. It has a very crisp look
>and (to me at least) is functional. Hypermail had bad bugs a while back
>which freaked the server if MIME bodyparts were in there. Maybe its back
>on the development track now.
>
>Samba is another package using Hypermail. It seems to behave pretty well
>for their level of usage too (the CVS lists take a *lot* of traffic from
>the atomic cvs commit messages.)

I agree re: the "crisp look" to the Hypermail approach.  In addition, it
automatically builds several indices.  We're using a relative recent version
of Hypermail that we downloaded last January.   While it does fix some of
the problem in earlier releases, it still does have problems in converting
certain types of MIME messages, primarily some variations of Multipart.
It's use however due to this problem does incur an administrative overhead
in that the problem messages that crop up from time to time need to be
manually fixed.   Of course, the hypermail code could be fixed, but I've not
had the time or resources available to address this problem.

For larger lists, I believe that at least some form of basic search
capability is necessary.   The IETF list over the course of a year simply
generates too much traffic for it to be practical for anyone to scan the
entire list.   In addition, the download time for the entire list can be
prohibitive.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, we've got several years worth of the IETF
archives dating back to 1993 at http://mlarchive.ima.com.   If there is any
interest, I'd be happy to provide the UNIX mailbox style archives as well as
any of the hypermail related tools we put together as well.

Best Regards,

Tim Kehres
International Messaging Associates
http://www.ima.com

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From: "Tim Kehres" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:04:14 +0800

Best Regards,

Tim Kehres