Subject: RE: Openness (Re: UTF-16)

From: "Oksala, Stephen P" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:18:19 -0400

The real problem is that ISO (and ANSI, and most other long-standing US
standards developers such as IEEE or ASTM) need to have money to pay the
staff, the electric bill, the rent, etc.  A substantial portion of that (as
high as 90% in the case of some organizations) comes from the profits on
document sales.  So while there has been strong pressure on ANSI and ISO
from IT folks for a number of years, nobody has demonstrated an alternative
source of funding.  In fact the participants were by and large outraged at
the imposition of fees on the order of $300 - they considered that their
time and energy was sufficient.  Companies, who used to provide the bulk of
the money, are increasingly unwilling to fund anything other than the basic
work; not that they believe it's unnecessary, but because they know they can
refuse to pay and still get the benefits.

As to low prices, higher volume and net gain - evidence with NCITS and the
US adoption of the ISO C++ standard is encouraging.  ($18 for an online
copy, as opposed to ISO's $200+ for paper)  But until the finance guys in
the standards organizations are convinced that they can survive, this will
be a rough road.  (And complicated - the copyright and royalty discussions
that take place depending on where the original work comes from are not for
the simpleminded.)  So the issue is not "free" standards, it's how to pay
for the organizations.  

Steve Oksala

Stephen P. Oksala
Director, Standards Management
Unisys
2076 Swedesford Road, MS B203H
Malvern, PA 19355
Phone: 610-648-2050
Fax: 610-695-4700
Email: [email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: John Day [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 1:26 PM
To: [email-masked]; Harald Tveit Alvestrand
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Openness (Re: UTF-16)

At 11:40 -0400 9/14/99, [email-masked] wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:31:24 +0200, Harald Tveit Alvestrand said:
>> We gave up on "open" having to mean "free" a *very* long time ago.
>> We've even given up on "online" meaning "free" - see ITU.

The real problem of the cost of standards is that ITU and ISO are still
stuck in an early 20th C mode which perceived standards as a premium item.
A company only needed to have one or two copies of any standard in the
corporate library for someone to be able to refer to infrequently to ensure
that the latest molds for screw threads met the standard.  Even for
telephone equipment there was not much demand for the kind of frequent
reference the development current systems require.

Both ITU and ISO have failed to understand that standards of this ilk are
*commodity* items and that they would make far more money by charging far
less for them.  IEEE figured this out.  You can buy IEEE standards at more
or less text book prices and have a nice bound book on your shelf you can
refer to.  Well within reason.  But to charge $100 or more for a xerox copy
is ludicrous.  We tried to make this argument to them 15 years ago but they
were just too dense to get it.  There are still areas of standardization
(not in anything having to do with our industry) where standards are still
premium product and perhaps should be treated that way.  But ITU and ISO
could probably make up the difference by greatly lowering their price and
selling far more copies.

Worse, they don't understand marketing.  A couple of years ago, an ITU
person asked me if I thought $1000 for all ITU recommendations on CD was
reasonable.  I told him that I thought companies might by one.  However, if
you put all ISDN or ATM or whatever on CD and charged $50.  You would sell
thousands.  (Not that *I* would buy them!)  Needless to say, they didn't do
it.

Basically, I don't necessarily see charging for a copy of the standard to
be a barrier to openness. However, the kinds of prices ISO and ITU charge
reflect a different time and a different midset to what would make sense
today.

But then that is also what you expect.

---

From: John Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:25:14 -0400

>refuse to pay and still get the benefits.

Yes, we all know that and have heard it a million times.
>copy, as opposed to ISO's $200+ for paper)  But until the finance guys in

Look at IEEE.  They have been selling the 802 stuff for years in PAPER for
around $20 or $30 and making lots of money.  It isn't even a question of
on-line or paper.

>the simpleminded.)  So the issue is not "free" standards, it's how to pay
No, the question is when are ISO and ITU going to come into the last half
of the 20thC in their market strategy.  When are they going to show some
innovative thinking and catch up with the rest of the world.

---

From: John Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:25:14 -0400

---

From: "David T. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:24:54 -0700

HI,

The IEEE 802 docs are no longer in the $20-$30 price range. Try $100+.
It looks like they set their price based on page count and the documents
have increased dramatically in page count. They have started making
the docs available in PDF, but they change more for PDF than paper.

for example, see http://standards.ieee.org/catalog/IEEE802.3.html

The price is $387 for paper and $581 for PDF!

Regards,
/david t. perkins

---

From: "David T. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:24:54 -0700

HI,

Regards,
/david t. perkins