Subject: IAB/IAOC/IETF Trust Minutes (was: IAOC Minutes)

From: SM <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:56:30 -0700

Hello,
At 07:48 20-08-2009, John C Klensin wrote:
>The purpose of posting minutes is presumably to satisfy the
>requirements of BCP 101 relative to open and transparent
>operation and keeping the community informed.  Yet both of these

Timeliness is also important.  The latest IESG minutes available is 
for September 24, 2009.  The IESG also sends out an agenda of the 
items scheduled for discussion at their next meeting.  I guess that 
the IESG has an advantage as it has a good scribe.  The IAOC and the 
IETF Trust mentioned that they are still searching for a scribe.

The latest IAB minutes is for July 1, 2009.

The latest IAOC minutes is for July 16, 2009.

The latest IETF Trust minutes is for July 16, 2009.

>Posting documents in a format that involves text files with very
>long lines that require horizontal scrolling with many systems
>is not a favor to the community or an aid to ready
>comprehensibility.

I'm going to re-purpose some text from the RFC Editor Document 
Style.  Good minutes
starts with a well-written and properly structured draft.  The 
minutes can be published
as plain text files in the US-ASCII character set.  Each line of text 
is limited to 72 characters, followed by the character sequence that 
denotes an end-of-line.  Careful indentation of text can be very 
important for clarity and readability.  Abbreviations must be 
expanded upon first use, except those that are "well-known".

I am not requesting any action.  I leave it to the relevant I* bodies 
to determine whether there is a problem.

Regards,
-sm

---

From: Dave CROCKER <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:09:28 -0700

>> is not a favor to the community or an aid to ready

A stray thought:

While it is always better to have an explicitly appointed scribe, I wonder 
whether a collaborative approach might help in the situations lacking this.

I'm thinking that a jabber session for a meeting would permit all participants 
to post their comments of what is happening as the meeting progresses.  This 
would not be a public session; its sole purpose would be to make an archive of 
notes that could then be lightly massaged into minutes.

If everyone in the meeting is recruited to assist, I suspect the result could be 
reasonably comprehensive.

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:17:18 -0400

On Oct 27, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote:

> While it is always better to have an explicitly appointed scribe, I  
> wonder whether a collaborative approach might help in the situations  
> lacking this.
Dave, an interesting proposal.  The good news is that starting this  
month Karen O'Donoghue has volunteered to be the IAOC and Trust  
scribe.  We are pleased to have someone with Karen's IETF experience.

Moreover there are many meeting minutes that will emerge from the  
review and approval process soon.  These minutes will have much more  
information than previously and this practice will continue.

Ray

> I'm thinking that a jabber session for a meeting would permit all  
> participants to post their comments of what is happening as the  
> meeting progresses.  This would not be a public session; its sole  
> purpose would be to make an archive of notes that could then be  
> lightly massaged into minutes.
>
> If everyone in the meeting is recruited to assist, I suspect the  
> result could be reasonably comprehensive.
>
> d/
> -- 
>
>  Dave Crocker
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:01:39 -0700

>>> is not a favor to the community or an aid to ready

wraping long lines is not a new technology

> wonder whether a collaborative approach might help in the situations

they could simply be recorded, post-production is prohibitively
expensive for a time and workflow perspective but raw recording have
some utility if you are willing to spend the cycles to reconstruct
events from them.

> participants to post their comments of what is happening as the meeting
> progresses.  This would not be a public session; its sole purpose would
> be to make an archive of notes that could then be lightly massaged into
> minutes.
> 
> If everyone in the meeting is recruited to assist, I suspect the result
> could be reasonably comprehensive.
> 
> d/

---

From: George Michaelson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:06:38 +1000

Sorry for top-post.

in a purely personal capacity, having spent many MANY hours jabber  
scribing in a number of WG (IPFIX, DNSext/DNSop/SIDR, plenary):

Its a thankless (mostly) task.

its exhausting for more than 30min without a break.

its impossible to participate in a WG discussion an jabber scribe.  
therefore to scribe is to take yourself out of the loop (tm) in the  
substance of the discussion.

Chairs oftentimes fail to recognize the timliness of jabber-scribe  
forced interventions into the room. You can't scribe and queue at the  
microphone.

There are disputes in WG about what is, or is not, a proper record of  
the session and I don't think its fair to put a jabber scribe in the  
position of possibly being held 'on the record' for what they scribe.

Having said which, as a best-effort assistance, and as a vehicle for  
rapid noting the flow of activity in a group, I'm all for it.

-George

On 28/10/2009, at 3:01 PM, Joel Jaeggli wrote:

>> meeting

---

From: Dave CROCKER <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 06:38:56 -0400

> its impossible to participate in a WG discussion an jabber scribe. 

These are two of the reasons why I did not suggest appointing /a/ scribe from 
the group, but instead suggested that everyone in the group contribute to the 
process of scribing.

As for Joel's alternative of recording, transcribing from a recording is 
prohibitively painful.  In contrast, converting from a jabber log to 'minutes' 
would not be.

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker