Subject: Re: IETF Last Calls and Godwin-like rules

From: [email-masked] (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:42:04 -0500 (EST)

> From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>

    > people who haven't participated and haven't studied the drafts

This isn't exactly about a complicated protocol: it's about whether to assign
an address block or not.

	Noel

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From: Nick Hilliard <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 22:29:23 +0000

> This isn't exactly about a complicated protocol: it's about whether to assign

It's a quintessential bike-shed problem.  The only reason that people are
moaning about it so much is that they understand the concept of address
allocation.  If the ID concerned a more difficult but important topic, it
would have been waved through hundreds of emails ago.

If every draft got this much attention, we'd still be arguing about X.400
to SMTP gateways.

Nick

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From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:00:38 -0800

> allocation.

exactly.  they understand the concept.  and, like many things where the
surface seems easy, everyone thinks they're an expert.

randy

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From: Leif Sawyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 08:56:23 -0900

Randy Bush speaketh:
> in reply to: Nick Hilliard
>> It's a quintessential bike-shed problem.  The only reason 
>> that people are moaning about it so much is that they understand
>> the concept of address allocation.
> 
> exactly.  they understand the concept.  and, like many things 
> where the surface seems easy, everyone thinks they're an expert.

Ugh.

Who gets to decide who the experts are?

Who gets to decide what voice they get?

Why should the "working expert" be penalized because they don't favor
sitting on a mailing list slogging through the minutae of everyday
issues that don't impact them, just for speaking up when they are
being affected?

You'll note that I didn't just "vote-stuff"  but have actively
participated in trying to show my reasoning for support.  I've
sat on the MSO-IPv6 working group for the last 2 years, and 
draft-weil went to OPSAWG, I followed it there.

And then it came over here.

Are you telling me, that because I haven't participated in any other
discussions, that I may not be "an expert" in my field, or that I 
don't get a voice?  Even though I've been working with IPv6 for >7 years,
and was the first person in Alaska to have a working production network
available at my job?  And to convince my company, that yes, IPv6 is worth
fighting for?  And to push back at vendors until they supported it? 
And filed and helped fix bugs?

I say that it is not *your* call.

I say that unless *you* are supporting >200k users on an IPv4 network with
the threat of no additional public IPv4 space looming, and the REQUIREMENT
that you not only maintain but GROW your business...

... if *YOU* *RANDY*  are not doing that... then *YOU* are not an expert.

Of course, that's not fair either.  And I would be loathe to actually
do such a thing.

But I would be careful about throwing stones around...

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From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:56 -0800

> Who gets to decide who the experts are?

i listen the folk actually implementing and actually using.  i also
listen to researchers with expertise in the field.  the ietf politicians
are already in my ~/.procmailrc.  you are welcome to listen to whom you
wish.

> discussions

i was not telling you anything, though i wonder why you are so
defensive.

randy

---

From: Leif Sawyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:37:46 -0900

Randy Bush respondeth...
> i was not telling you anything, though i wonder why you are so

I asked not for myself, but for those who do not or cannot speak.

And your answer speaks volumes.