Subject: Social activities under societies (was Re: anti-harassment procedures

From: Abdussalam Baryun <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 09:48:25 +0100

Hi Keith

My comments below,

On Saturday, February 22, 2014, Keith Moore wrote:

> On 02/21/2014 08:19 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote:
>
>> In my view, a successful harassment policy needs to do two things:
>> 1) Clearly establish what is unacceptable behavior.
>> 2) Clearly indicate whom to go to for help.
>>
>> Section 4 satisfies (2) adequately. This statement, however, indicates
>> that you are punting on (1).
>>
>
IMHO the Requirement 1 is a must, to give good reasons for some penalties.

> While I understand the desire to do (1), in my experience with discussing
> harassment policies in other organizations it has been a rathole, or at
> least a slippery slope.

Yes, but only because societies still don't solve it when interacting with
other cultures or minorities. Usually organisations should build a strong
culture related to its vision and policies. In countries,
organisations, universities, etc. they encourage establishing
of clubs/societies to make people interact under social goals or
activities (do we have social societies in IETF?) I think that is missing
or I am not aware because was remotely working.

I know that there is a social event in meetings and hopefully will try to
join if I get availability time in this meeting.

> While it's not too hard to identify a few obviously harassing or abusive
> behaviors, it can be very hard to draw a bright line between acceptable and
> unacceptable behaviors in general.

Yes it is very hard for engineers, so we need external advise which is very
good for this best practice work.

> Simple policies seem to work much better than complicated ones.

Yes but if the harassing problem is complicated with many
variable parameters, there is no simple best solution for that. Intelligent
or wise solutions are best and IMHO they are complicated which may need
someone with large experience to achieve.

I like that the authors are very well experts with IETF experience but if
we get an additional author with different experience it will help. I
recommend the authors to get advise some experts outside IETF as
from universities. This problem is never can be solved by expert engineers
without social science experts ;-)

Thanks,

AB

---

From: Abdussalam Baryun <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 10:13:35 +0100

Social clubs solve many problem in IETF but it should not be private or
hidden if established or organised. Comments below,

> or I am not aware because was remotely working.

IETF has engineering reasoning goal in its decisions and it should not
allow any type of clubs that may try to influence decisions against IETF
visions.

> Yes it is very hard for engineers, so we need external advise which is
> very good for this best practice work.
>
>>
>

The IETF already is organised to guide its processes to the best of
its visions and goals, so if small clubs interfere that vision signal and
goal channel, then the IETF should guide those clubs socially.

AB

Please note that I have good experience in IETF for 2 years and am
reviewing many drafts of IETF. This note is important because there may
be few clubs in IETF that try to make my participation not valid as
influencing quality of interaction between remote and f2f participants.