From muraris@microsoft.com Wed Jul 1 18:07:03 2009
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From: Murari Sridharan
To: Murari Sridharan , "ledbat@ietf.org"
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:07:17 -0700
Thread-Topic: Progress, Agendas and such
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Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
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Ping? It would be good to get explicit sign off otherwise I'll have to assu=
me nobody has any objections.
From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
Murari Sridharan
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM
To: ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make q=
uite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, what =
action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward.
We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. For =
starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions, =
here is what we have so far.
draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm inclu=
ding whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target.
Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage, espec=
ially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows for ther=
e to be effective statistical multiplexing?
It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield implement=
ation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be easy to study=
the dynamics in NS for instance.
It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulatio=
n and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o=
f this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific in=
formation and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definitely c=
alls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the questi=
ons raised in the mailing lists.
There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item and=
then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no al=
ternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adopting=
this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we should=
go ahead with this plan.
draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next v=
ersion from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopted =
as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft i=
ncorporating the comments.
draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people hadn'=
t read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to Mi=
chael.
Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft ab=
ove will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions=
to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenf=
ield implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to h=
ave you come up and present your findings as well.
Thanks
Murari
--_000_FCA794787FDE0D4DBE9FFA11053ECEB6231E68CAAENAEXMSGC110re_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ping? It would be good t=
o get
explicit sign off otherwise I’ll have to assume nobody has any object=
ions.
=
From:
ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
b>Murari
Sridharan
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM
To: ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting =
and we
need to make quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where thing=
s
stand, what action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward=
.
We have the following documents and none of these so f=
ar are
WG items. For starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue
discussions, here is what we have so far.
d=
raft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
There have been some fairness concerns raised regardin=
g the
algorithm including whether the controller should aim to move delay to a
target.
Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first m=
over
advantage, especially inside a home environment where there are not too man=
y
flows for there to be effective statistical multiplexing?
It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a
Greenfield implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and sho=
uld
be easy to study the dynamics in NS for instance.
It would be good to see data on how the algorithm beha=
ves
both in simulation and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let u=
s
know how much of this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any u=
ser
specific information and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This
definitely calls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some o=
f
the questions raised in the mailing lists.
There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt =
this
as a WG item and then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right no=
w
there is no alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in fav=
or
of adopting this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objection=
s we
should go ahead with this plan.
draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forwa=
rd to
seeing a next version from the authors but I believe this one is also ready=
to
be adopted as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revi=
sed
draft incorporating the comments.
draft-we=
lzl-ledbat-survey
This is a pretty good summary of the related research =
but
many people hadn’t read it at the last IETF it would be great if you =
can send
feedback to Michael.
Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for =
a
slot. Each draft above will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting
questions/discussions to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. If
somebody did a Greenfield implementation or analyzes the algorithm further =
it
would be good to have you come up and present your findings as well. <=
/o:p>
Thanks
Murari
--_000_FCA794787FDE0D4DBE9FFA11053ECEB6231E68CAAENAEXMSGC110re_--
From rpenno@juniper.net Fri Jul 3 14:03:23 2009
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From: Reinaldo Penno
To: Murari Sridharan , "ledbat@ietf.org"
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:59:15 -0400
Thread-Topic: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
Thread-Index: Acn2crF8+oXvFLneRJOiAjioodke2AFrm4Nq
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I'm working on a new version of
draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations-00 based on the feedback I
got during the last meeting.
On 6/26/09 8:28 AM, "Murari Sridharan" wrote:
> Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make
> quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, wh=
at
> action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward.
> =20
> We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. Fo=
r
> starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions=
,
> here is what we have so far.
> =20
> draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
>
> There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm
> including whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target.
> Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage,
> especially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows f=
or
> there to be effective statistical multiplexing?
> =20
> It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield
> implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be ea=
sy to
> study the dynamics in NS for instance.
> It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulat=
ion
> and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o=
f
> this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific
> information and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definite=
ly
> calls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the
> questions raised in the mailing lists.
> =20
>=20
> There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item a=
nd
> then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no
> alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adop=
ting
> this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we shoul=
d go
> ahead with this plan.
> =20
> draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
> txt>=20
> There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next
> version from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopt=
ed as
> a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft
> incorporating the comments.
> =20
> draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
>
> This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people had=
n=B9t
> read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to
> Michael.=20
> =20
> Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft =
above
> will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions t=
o be
> had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenfield
> implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to have=
you
> come up and present your findings as well.
> =20
> Thanks
> Murari=20
From muraris@microsoft.com Sat Jul 4 14:04:56 2009
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From: Murari Sridharan
To: Reinaldo Penno , "ledbat@ietf.org"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:04:39 -0700
Thread-Topic: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
Thread-Index: Acn2crF8+oXvFLneRJOiAjioodke2AFrm4NqADJ7DK0=
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Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
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Do you have an ETA for when you will have a draft we can review?
Thanks
________________________________________
From: Reinaldo Penno [rpenno@juniper.net]
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 1:59 PM
To: Murari Sridharan; ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
I'm working on a new version of
draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations-00 based on the feedback I
got during the last meeting.
On 6/26/09 8:28 AM, "Murari Sridharan" wrote:
> Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make
> quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, wh=
at
> action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward.
>
> We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. Fo=
r
> starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions=
,
> here is what we have so far.
>
> draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
>
> There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm
> including whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target.
> Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage,
> especially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows f=
or
> there to be effective statistical multiplexing?
>
> It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield
> implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be ea=
sy to
> study the dynamics in NS for instance.
> It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulat=
ion
> and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o=
f
> this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific
> information and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definite=
ly
> calls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the
> questions raised in the mailing lists.
>
>
> There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item a=
nd
> then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no
> alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adop=
ting
> this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we shoul=
d go
> ahead with this plan.
>
> draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
> txt>
> There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next
> version from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopt=
ed as
> a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft
> incorporating the comments.
>
> draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
>
> This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people had=
n=B9t
> read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to
> Michael.
>
> Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft =
above
> will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions t=
o be
> had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenfield
> implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to have=
you
> come up and present your findings as well.
>
> Thanks
> Murari=
From rbriscoe@jungle.bt.co.uk Mon Jul 6 07:28:29 2009
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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:24:32 +0100
To: Lars Eggert
From: Bob Briscoe
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Cc: "ledbat@ietf.org"
Subject: Re: [ledbat] Ledbat variants
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Lars, Murari,
A specific example: Measuring one-way delay, which:
- isn't trivial to add to most existing protocols - requiring a new option
- isn't typically incrementally deployable at only one end
Nonetheless, it's good for a congestion control to avoid getting
confused by delay on the return path. However, if we take the view
that avoiding this confusion is a luxury and incremental deployment
is more important, we'll never actually get rid of being confused by
return path delays. It is better to have a protocol that will do
one-way delay where it can, but fall back to two-way only if it can't.
Bob
At 08:42 29/06/2009, Lars Eggert wrote:
>Hi,
>
>On 2009-6-26, at 18:46, Murari Sridharan wrote:
>>In our charter we have text that says applications of this algorithm
>>to existing transport protocols is expected to occur in WGs that
>>maintain those protocols be it TCP, DCCP or SCTP. Does that mean a
>>ledbat variant such as above gets discussed in TCPM or ICCRG or
>>should we take a stab at it here and move it to ICCRG at some later
>>point?
>
>the - maybe naive - assumption behind the charter text was that LEDBAT
>would produce one experimental CC algorithm that could then be applied
>to different transport protocols in whatever WG maintains those
>protocols.
>
>The issue you raise - what if "the" LEDBAT algorithm requires input or
>behavior that one of the protocols can't provide? - is interesting,
>and I don't think we thought about this case at chartering time.
>
>My personal preference would be to still try and come up with one
>simple algorithm that can actually be applied to several of our
>transport protocols. The reason is that it'll be difficult enough to
>model, simulate and experimentally vet this one algorithm, and
>multiplying this effort will require many more cycles. On the other
>hand, if someone came up with a really good LBE algorithm that for
>example only worked for DCCP, I don't see why we wouldn't want to
>publish this in some form (in cooperation with the DCCP WG, in this
>example case.) But I don't think we should fragment the effort into
>per-protocol algorithms unless we really need to.
>
>On 2009-6-26, at 18:46, Murari Sridharan wrote:
>>There is a need for ledbat type CC as an alternative congestion
>>control on TCP.
>
>True. I may be naive again, but the draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
>algorithm is adapted from TCP Vegas - do we not believe that it would
>work when re-applied to TCP?
>
>>The difference here is that it has to work within TCP as a form of
>>congestion control (or flow control). There are several applications
>>(not including P2P apps) that require this behavior. The main
>>differences are a) there is no additional framing other than TCP
>>framing b) it should be incrementally deployable, that is only one
>>end (sender or receiver) needs to change as you may not always have
>>control over both ends c) given it would work within TCP it would
>>react to RTT (as opposed to one-way delay) and as a result will be
>>affected by reverse path congestion.
>
>(b) is a new requirement that during the chartering phase wasn't
>discussed much. Obviously, it'd be nice if a one-ended algorithm would
>work, but I'd worry that we're lopping off too much of the design
>space if we make this a hard requirement.
>
>>Even though one of the ledbat requirements is to saturate the
>>bottleneck there are applications that are perfectly fine without
>>saturating the link as long as some basic guarantees on flow
>>completion.
>
>
>This is again diverging a bit from the goals of the charter. I don't
>think that anyone would be seriously concerned if we came up with an
>otherwise good algorithm that in some corner cases can't fill the
>bottleneck, but if we came up with one that'd never saturate the
>bottleneck, I'd expect the bulk transfer folks to argue a bit.
>
>Lars
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ledbat mailing list
>ledbat@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat
_________________________________________________________________________
Notice: This contribution is the personal view of the author and does
not necessarily reflect the technical nor commercial direction of BT plc.
_________________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research
From muraris@microsoft.com Tue Jul 14 00:41:39 2009
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From: Murari Sridharan
To: Murari Sridharan , "ledbat@ietf.org"
Thread-Topic: Progress, Agendas and such
Thread-Index: Acn2crF8+oXvFLneRJOiAjioodke2AEPpXLgAmkfJr0=
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Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
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We'll go ahead and adopt these as WG documents in Sweden. The agenda should=
be the same as what i outlined earlier in email.
Stas/Lars, I am sending you a mail regarding this but i thought i'll let th=
e list know so we can prepare accordingly. I had a family emergency and had=
to rush to India urgently, i also had to withdraw my swedish visa applicat=
ion in the middle so i can get back my passport to travel. Given where thin=
gs stand i may have to miss the meeting. I'll coordinate with you regarding=
the same.
Thanks
________________________________
From: Murari Sridharan
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:07 PM
To: Murari Sridharan; ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Progress, Agendas and such
Ping? It would be good to get explicit sign off otherwise I=92ll have to as=
sume nobody has any objections.
From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
Murari Sridharan
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM
To: ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make q=
uite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, what =
action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward.
We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. For =
starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions, =
here is what we have so far.
draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm inclu=
ding whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target.
Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage, espec=
ially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows for ther=
e to be effective statistical multiplexing?
It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield implement=
ation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be easy to study=
the dynamics in NS for instance.
It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulatio=
n and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o=
f this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific in=
formation and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definitely c=
alls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the questi=
ons raised in the mailing lists.
There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item and=
then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no al=
ternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adopting=
this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we should=
go ahead with this plan.
draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next v=
ersion from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopted =
as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft i=
ncorporating the comments.
draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people hadn=
=92t read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to=
Michael.
Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft ab=
ove will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions=
to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenf=
ield implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to h=
ave you come up and present your findings as well.
Thanks
Murari
--_000_03520536067DF14395EA93FE7ECFDCF001D1EFTK5EX14MBXC121red_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We'll go ahead and adopt these as WG documents in Sweden. The agenda s=
hould be the same as what i outlined earlier in email.
Stas/Lars, I am sending you a mail regarding this but i thought i'll l=
et the list know so we can prepare accordingly. I had a family emergency an=
d had to rush to India urgently, i also had to withdraw my swedish visa app=
lication in the middle so i can
get back my passport to travel. Given where things stand i may have t=
o miss the meeting. I'll coordinate with you regarding the same.
Thanks
From: Murari Srid=
haran
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:07 PM
To: Murari Sridharan; ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Progress, Agendas and such
Ping? It would be goo=
d to get explicit sign off otherwise I=92ll have to assume nobody has any o=
bjections.
From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces=
@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Murari Sridharan
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM
To: ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such
Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meetin=
g and we need to make quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of wh=
ere things stand, what action items we have and a proposed plan to move thi=
ngs forward.
We have the following documents and none of these so=
far are WG items. For starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then=
continue discussions, here is what we have so far.
draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion=
There have been some fairness concerns raised regard=
ing the algorithm including whether the controller should aim to move delay=
to a target.
Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first=
mover advantage, especially inside a home environment where there are not =
too many flows for there to be effective statistical multiplexing?
It would be good to get some folks on the list to do=
a Greenfield implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and =
should be easy to study the dynamics in NS for instance.
It would be good to see data on how the algorithm be=
haves both in simulation and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do=
let us know how much of this data you can share, you can of course anonymi=
ze any user specific information and
show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definitely calls for reve=
rsion of your document answering/clarifying some of the questions raised in=
the mailing lists.
There is work to do but I think we are ready to adop=
t this as a WG item and then continue working on improving the algorithm. R=
ight now there is no alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) h=
um in favor of adopting this as a
WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we should go ahead =
with this plan.
draft-penno-ledb=
at-app-practices-recommendations
There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking for=
ward to seeing a next version from the authors but I believe this one is al=
so ready to be adopted as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we ca=
n see a revised draft incorporating
the comments.
draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
This is a pretty good summary of the related researc=
h but many people hadn=92t read it at the last IETF it would be great if yo=
u can send feedback to Michael.
Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked fo=
r a slot. Each draft above will get one slot. There are a ton of interestin=
g questions/discussions to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. I=
f somebody did a Greenfield implementation
or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to have you come up and=
present your findings as well.
Thanks
Murari
--_000_03520536067DF14395EA93FE7ECFDCF001D1EFTK5EX14MBXC121red_--
From shalunov@bittorrent.com Fri Jul 17 13:30:32 2009
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From: Stanislav Shalunov
To: ledbat@ietf.org
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Cc: Bernard Aboba
Subject: [ledbat] Bernard Aboba will act as LEDBAT cochair in Stockholm in Murari's stead
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As Murari mentioned, he will have to skip the Stockholm meeting due to
a family emergency.
Bernard Aboba has stepped forward to act in his stead during the
Stockholm meeting. Thank you, Bernard!
Bernard is planning to send out the draft agenda shortly.
Thanks,
-- Stas
--
Stanislav Shalunov
BitTorrent Inc
shalunov@bittorrent.com
personal: http://shlang.com
From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Fri Jul 17 16:31:21 2009
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From: Bernard Aboba
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Subject: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take One
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--_1acbb001-efa5-488d-b7ca-4d8e90338149_
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Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75. Edit=
s/additions/deletions welcome.=20
=20
LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75=2C Stockholm=2C Sweden
Congreshall B
Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009
=20
Chairs: S. Shalunov
M. Sridharan
B. Aboba (acting)
=20
13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes)
Note well
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda bashing
Document Status
Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (60 minutes)
=20
13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT)=2C S. Shaluno=
v (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
=20
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minute=
s)=20
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
Individual Submissions (30 minutes)
=20
14:10 =96 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M=
. Welzl (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
=20
Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes)
=20
14:40 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (20 minutes)
=20
=20
--_1acbb001-efa5-488d-b7ca-4d8e90338149_
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Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75. =
=3B Edits/additions/deletions welcome.
 =3B
LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75=2C Stockholm=2C Sweden
Congreshall B
Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009
 =3B
Chairs: =3B S. Shalunov
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B&nbs=
p=3B =3B =3B M. Sridharan
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =
=3B =3B =3B =3B B. Aboba (acting)
 =3B
13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes)
Note well
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda bashin=
g
Document Status
Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (6=
0 minutes)
 =3B
13:10 - 13:40 =3B Low Extra Delay Background =3B Transport (LEDBAT)=
=2C S. Shalunov (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-c=
ongestion
 =3B
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minute=
s)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices=
-recommendations
Individual Submissions (30 minutes)
 =3B
14:10 =96 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M=
. Welzl (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
 =3B
Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes)
 =3B
14:40 =96 15:00 Chairs &=3B Area Directors (20 minutes)
 =3B
 =3B
=
--_1acbb001-efa5-488d-b7ca-4d8e90338149_--
From michawe@ulrik.uio.no Fri Jul 17 23:52:24 2009
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Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:52:18 +0200
From: michawe@ifi.uio.no
To: "Bernard Aboba"
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Cc: ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take One
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Hi,
Since I see this split in "consideration for adoption"
and "individual submissions" (mine only) - sorry if
I haven't explicitly said so, but my intention was also
to request that my document would become a WG item.
I think I won't need 30 minutes, 20 would be enough.
Cheers,
Michael
>
> Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75.
> Edits/additions/deletions welcome.
>
>
>
> LEDBAT WG Meeting
> IETF 75, Stockholm, Sweden
>
> Congreshall B
>
> Wednesday, July 29, 2009
>
>
>
> Chairs: S. Shalunov
> M. Sridharan
> B. Aboba (acting)
>
>
>
> 13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes)
>
> Note well
> Blue Sheets
> Minute Takers
> Jabber Scribe
> Agenda bashing
> Document Status
>
>
> Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (60 minutes)
>
>
>
> 13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT), S. Shalunov
> (30 minutes)
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
>
>
>
> 13:40 ? 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30 minutes)
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
>
>
> Individual Submissions (30 minutes)
>
>
>
> 14:10 ? 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols, M.
> Welzl (30 minutes)
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
>
>
>
> Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes)
>
>
>
> 14:40 ? 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (20 minutes)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ledbat mailing list
> ledbat@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat
>
From shalunov@bittorrent.com Sat Jul 18 02:52:39 2009
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From: Stanislav Shalunov
To: "michawe@ifi.uio.no"
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Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:48:42 -0700
Cc: Bernard Aboba , "ledbat@ietf.org"
Subject: Re: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take One
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Michael,
We should find a way to get your excellent draft published. At this
point, the only reason it's listed as an individual submission is that
we don't yet have AD permission to put it on the charter. The
meeting, however, will be an obvious time to clear this with the WG
and the ADs.
Thank you again for contributing this,
-- Stas
Stanislav Shalunov
On Jul 17, 2009, at 11:52 PM, michawe@ifi.uio.no wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Since I see this split in "consideration for adoption"
> and "individual submissions" (mine only) - sorry if
> I haven't explicitly said so, but my intention was also
> to request that my document would become a WG item.
>
> I think I won't need 30 minutes, 20 would be enough.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>>
>> Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75.
>> Edits/additions/deletions welcome.
>>
>>
>>
>> LEDBAT WG Meeting
>> IETF 75, Stockholm, Sweden
>>
>> Congreshall B
>>
>> Wednesday, July 29, 2009
>>
>>
>>
>> Chairs: S. Shalunov
>> M. Sridharan
>> B. Aboba (acting)
>>
>>
>>
>> 13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes)
>>
>> Note well
>> Blue Sheets
>> Minute Takers
>> Jabber Scribe
>> Agenda bashing
>> Document Status
>>
>>
>> Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (60
>> minutes)
>>
>>
>>
>> 13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT), S.
>> Shalunov
>> (30 minutes)
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
>>
>>
>>
>> 13:40 ? 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30
>> minutes)
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
>>
>>
>> Individual Submissions (30 minutes)
>>
>>
>>
>> 14:10 ? 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport
>> Protocols, M.
>> Welzl (30 minutes)
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
>>
>>
>>
>> Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes)
>>
>>
>>
>> 14:40 ? 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (20 minutes)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ledbat mailing list
>> ledbat@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ledbat mailing list
> ledbat@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat
From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 20:48:09 2009
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Subject: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take Two
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LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75
Stockholm=2C Sweden
Chairs: S. Shalunov
M. Sridharan
B. Aboba (acting)
Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009
13:00 - 15:00
Congresshall B
Preliminaries (10 minutes)
Note well
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda bashing
Document Status
Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (80 minutes)
13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT)=2C S. Shaluno=
v (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minute=
s)=20
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
14:10 =96 14:30 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M=
. Welzl (20 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
Next Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes)
14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (30 minutes)
--_a6e1ceed-b1b8-45b7-9a76-804056c18e80_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
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LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75
Stockholm=2C Sweden
Chairs: =3B =
S. Shalunov
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B&nbs=
p=3B M. Sridharan
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =
=3B =3B B. Aboba (acting)
Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009
13:00 =
- 15:00
Congresshall B
Preliminaries (10 minutes)
Note wel=
l
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda bashing
Doc=
ument Status
Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work=
Item (80 minutes)
13:10 - 13:40 =3B Low Extra Delay Background&=
nbsp=3B Transport (LEDBAT)=2C S. Shalunov (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf=
.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Prac=
tices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.or=
g/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
14:10 =96 14:3=
0 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M. Welzl (20 mi=
nutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
Next =
Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes)
14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs &=3B Area Di=
rectors (30 minutes)
=
--_a6e1ceed-b1b8-45b7-9a76-804056c18e80_--
From peer2peer@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 15:38:39 2009
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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:38:34 +0200
Message-ID: <55cb6be30907271538m36cfd56aj6cdb56399404071@mail.gmail.com>
From: Johan Pouwelse
To: ledbat@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151750da1a3de283046fb79d2a
Subject: [ledbat] Commitment to contribute by P2P-next project
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Dear ledbat group,
Hereby the P2P-Next research group commits itself to contributing to Ledbat
a 'next-generation congestion control algorithm'.
We have developed new algorithms and initial running Open Source code which
we are expanding. Before the end of this year we are planning to conduct an
open Internet trial with over 50.000 participants.
P2P-Next is a European Union sponsored project with a budget of 19 million
Euro. We are commited to use part of these resources to deploy and
standardize a novel congestion control algorithm.
We have reviewed in detail the current proposals on the Stockholm agenda.
Our key contribution due before end of 2009 is an algorithm which is
designed to move beyond the 1-to-1 context of current state-of-the-art. We
improve efficiency by utilising the fact that large majority of background
upload traffic takes place in a 1 uploader to N receivers context. Our
initial measurements indicate that local and remote congestion can be
identified with superior accuracy if this context is exploited.
>From the strategic side we plan to be completely open about sharing of our
Open Source code, algorithms and (anonymised) datasets.
By contacting you prior to this meeting we hope that you can take our work
into account when relevant.
The technical detail of our work will be given within a month from now.
Greetings,
Dr. Johan pouwelse, scientific director of P2P-next.
On Jul 27, 2009 5:48 AM, "Bernard Aboba" wrote:
LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75
Stockholm, Sweden
Chairs: S. Shalunov
M. Sridharan
B. Aboba (acting)
Wednesday, July 29, 2009
13:00 - 15:00
Congresshall B
Preliminaries (10 minutes)
Note well
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda bashing
Document Status
Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (80 minutes)
13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT), S. Shalunov
(30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations
14:10 =96 14:30 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols, M.
Welzl (20 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
Next Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes)
14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (30 minutes)
_______________________________________________
ledbat mailing list
ledbat@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat
--00151750da1a3de283046fb79d2a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
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Dear ledbat group,
Hereby the P2P-Next research group commits itself to contributing to Led=
bat a 'next-generation congestion control algorithm'.
We have developed new algorithms and initial running Open Source code wh=
ich we are expanding. Before the end of this year we are planning to conduc=
t an open Internet trial with over 50.000 participants.
P2P-Next is a European Union sponsored project with a budget of 19 million =
Euro. We are commited to use part of these resources to deploy and standard=
ize a novel congestion control algorithm.
We have reviewed in detail the current proposals on the Stockholm agenda. O=
ur key contribution due before end of 2009 is an algorithm which is designe=
d to move beyond the 1-to-1 context of current state-of-the-art. We improve=
efficiency by utilising the fact that large majority of background upload =
traffic takes place in a 1 uploader to N receivers context. Our initial mea=
surements indicate that local and remote congestion can be identified with =
superior accuracy if this context is exploited.
From the strategic side we plan to be completely open about sharing of o=
ur Open Source code, algorithms and (anonymised) datasets.
By contacting you prior to this meeting we hope that you can take our wo=
rk into account when relevant.
The technical detail of our work will be given within a month from now.
Greetings,
Dr. Johan pouwelse, scientific director of P2P-next.
On Jul 27, 2009 5:48 AM, "Bernard Aboba&q=
uot; <ber=
nard_aboba@hotmail.com> wrote:
LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75
Stockholm, Sweden
Chairs:=A0 S. Shal=
unov
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 M. Sridharan
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 B=
. Aboba (acting)
Wednesday, July 29, 2009
13:00 - 15:00
Congre=
sshall B
Preliminaries (10 minutes)
Note well
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda ba=
shing
Document Status
Documents Under Consideration for Adoption =
as a WG Work Item (80 minutes)
13:10 - 13:40=A0 Low Extra Delay Back=
ground=A0 Transport (LEDBAT), S. Shalunov (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion<=
br>
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30 m=
inutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-ap=
p-practices-recommendations14:10 =96 14:30 A Survey of Lower-th=
an-Best Effort Transport Protocols, M. Welzl (20 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-surveyNex=
t Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes)
14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Di=
rectors (30 minutes)
_______________________________________________
ledbat mailing list
ledbat@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat
--00151750da1a3de283046fb79d2a--
From hishigh@gmail.com Tue Jul 28 04:39:49 2009
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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:39:46 +0800
Message-ID: <8bd755250907280439r2d759e82nb05c821bc86a5a79@mail.gmail.com>
From: yunfei zhang
To: ledbat@ietf.org
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Subject: [ledbat] PPSP (P2P streaming protocol) final bar bof agenda
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Hi,all,
The PPSP (P2P streaming protocol) final bar bof agenda is updated as
follows. Welcome to attend with us.Any suggestions and contributions are
appreciated.
PPSP Final Bar BoF-- IETF 75, Stockholm
2000-2200 Thursday,July 30,Room 300.
Mailing list=A3=BAppsp@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
Chair: Yunfei Zhang( zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com)
Gonzalo Camarillo *( *gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com)
(One more may involve)
AD: Lars Eggert( lars.eggert@nokia.com)
Agenda
1. Introduction and Agenda bashing
(Chair,10')
2. Problem Statement
(Yunfei
Zhang, 40')
draft-zhang-ppsp-problem-statement-04
3.Discussion
=A3=A8All,20'=A3=A9
4. Other Drafts (the time length is variable depending on the above
discussion time)
---- Protocol Analysis of PPlive, PPStream and UUSee by Interent
Measurement (Yunfei Zhang,5')
draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-02
----Chunk Discovery for P2P
Streaming
(Ning
Zong, 10=A1=AF)
draft-zong-ppsp-chunk-discovery-00
5. Discussion
(All,
20')
6. Decisions and
HUMs
(All, 10')
7. Conclusions and Next
Steps
(Chairs/ADs,
5')
BR
Yunfei
--001636e0b4fe040712046fc28720
Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The PPSP (P2P streaming protocol) final =
bar bof agenda is updated as follows. Welcome to attend with us.Any suggest=
ions and contributions are appreciated.
PPSP Fi=
nal Bar BoF-- IETF 75, Stockholm
2000-2200 Thursday,July 30,Room 300. =
span>
Mailing list=A3=BAppsp@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pps=
p
Chair: Yunfe=
i Zhang( zhangyunfei@chinamo=
bile.com)
&=
nbsp; Gonzalo Camarillo ( gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com)
&=
nbsp; (One more may involve)
AD: La=
rs Eggert( lars.eggert@nokia.com)
Agenda
1. Introduction and=
Agenda bashing <=
span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
(Chair,1=
0') <=
/p>
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp;
2. Problem Statemen=
t &nbs=
p;  =
; &nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; (Yunfei Zhang, 40')=
draft-zhang-ppsp-problem-statement-=
04
3.Discussion =
&nb=
sp; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; =A3=A8All,20'=
=A3=A9
4. Other Drafts (th=
e time length is variable depending on the above discussion time)
---- Pr=
otocol Analysis of PPlive, PPStream and UUSee by Interent Measurement  =
; &n=
bsp; (Yunfei Zhang,5')
draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-compar=
ison-measurement-02&n=
bsp;
----Chunk Discovery for P2P Streaming =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp;(Ning Zong, 10’)
draft-z=
ong-ppsp-chunk-discovery-00
5.
Discussion =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; (All, =
20')
6. Decisions and HUMs &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; (All, 10'=
;)
7. Conclusions and Next Steps &n=
bsp;  =
; &n=
bsp;  =
; &n=
bsp;  =
; &n=
bsp;  =
; &n=
bsp; (Chairs/ADs, 5') =
span>
=
&nb=
sp; =
BR
=
&nb=
sp; =
Yunfei
--001636e0b4fe040712046fc28720--
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From wesley.m.eddy@nasa.gov Thu Jul 30 09:17:40 2009
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From: "Eddy, Wesley M. (GRC-MS00)[Verizon]"
To: Bernard Aboba , "ledbat@ietf.org"
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:17:25 -0500
Thread-Topic: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for Adoption of "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" as a LEDBAT WG work item
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Subject: Re: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for Adoption of "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" as a LEDBAT WG work item
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I supported adoption of this draft in the WG meeting, and
will support it again on the list, though I'll be very clear
that it still needs some work. It is a good start. I've
read it a couple of times, and have a few comments:
Technical Comments:
1 -
Similar to RFC 2581, a "FlightSize" should be defined for the amount
of data in flight, since it's not always the same as cwnd. This can
(and has) lead to errors in TCP implementation, so it should be made
clear.
2 -
"halve on loss" ... this should refer to the FlightSize rather than
the window, consistent with RFC 2581.
3 -
TARGET of 25 ms seems arbitrary for a "MUST" ... I think it should be
a default constant via "SHOULD", but could be ripe for experimentation.
4 -
should the NOISE_FILTER be related to cwnd or FlightSize? ... I think
FlightSize.
5 -
Definition of how loss is detected in order to generate a cwnd reduction
is absolutely required. This needs to be clear and prominent in the
draft.
6 -
Is it correct that this is not intended to be an "ECN-Capable Transport"?
It seems like ECN could be added ... it's listed as a design goal, but not
accommodated by the algorithm specification itself.
Editorial Comments :
1 -=20
In section 2, Introduction (first sentence)
The standard congestion control in TCP is based on loss and has not
been designed to drive delay to any given value. Because TCP needs
losses to back off, when a FIFO bottleneck lacks AQM, TCP fills the
buffer, effectively maximizing possible delay.
there are a couple problems with precision in this, suggest changing to ->
The standard TCP congestion control algorithms [RFC2581bis] are
based on congestion signals that do not directly include queueing
delay. Without Active Queue Management (AQM), TCP fills buffers
at bottlenecks within the network [RFC2309], effectively creating
maximal queueing delay at the bottleneck.
2 -
Abstract & Introduction "advanced networking applications" should just
be "applications"
3 -
several places require disambiguation of "delay" into "queueing delay"
4 -
overall, there could be some slight grammatical improvements in a lot
of places, but I'd wait until the document is near WGLC to worry about
them.
---------------------------
Wes Eddy
Network & Systems Architect
Verizon FNS / NASA GRC
Office: (216) 433-6682
---------------------------
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of Bernard Aboba
>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:27 AM
>To: ledbat@ietf.org
>Subject: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for Adoption of "Low Extra Delay
>Background Transport" as a LEDBAT WG work item
>
>
>During the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting, the attendees indicated an
>interest in adopting "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" (draft-
>shulanov-ledbat-congestion) as a LEDBAT WG work item (with Experimental
>status).
>
>We would now like to verify the outcome of this call for adoption on the
>LEDBAT WG mailing list. The document is available for inspection here:
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shulanov-ledbat-congestion
>
>If you did not raise your hand at the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting, and
>have an opinion as to the suitability of adopting this document as a WG
>work item, please send mail to the LEDBAT WG list indicating your
>opinion (Yes/No/Abstain).
>
>The confirmation call for adoption will last until August 7, 2009. If
>you have issues/edits/comments on the document, please send these
>comments along to the list in your response to this Call for Adoption.
>
>Bernard
>Acting WG Co-Chair
>
>
>
>
>
>i'm EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD
>Join me
>