We have recently had some casual discussion here about the '#'
character and our admittedly informal agreement from 1995 to refer
to it as 'pound'. But someone wrote here a couple days ago saying
'pound' as not correct; that is a British currency word. I went back
to our archives and checked through the articles on same; I am still
at a loss about what the '#' symbol should be called. Maybe by
re-reading these 1988 and 1995 articles from the Digest you can
reach some decision. If so, then please tell me.
To: telecom@bu-cs.bu.edu
Subject: Octothorpe source
Date: 19 Nov 88 15:25:08 PST (Sat)
From: ucla-an!bongo!julian@ee.UCLA.EDU (julian macassey)
I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
OCTOTHORPE.
An octothorpe is an # , which is what is usually referred to as
"the pound sign" or "the hash mark", sometimes as "the number
symbol". I know the correct term is octothorpe, I have seen references
to it in some Bell docs, I have even seen a news clipping years ago
that mentioned it.
My problem is that every now and again, some smart Alec asks me
where it comes from. I have even been accused of making it up. No
dictionary I have seen has ever given me a definition. Yes I have
looked it up in the 24 Volume Oxford English Dictionary. I have
checked the encyc Brit and alleged Telecommunications Dictionaries.
I do know that Octo means eight and Thorpe means beam. So the word
has some roots.
There is a good term paper here for someone.
Yours Julian Macassey
Julian Macassey, n6are julian@bongo voice (213) 653-4495
To: comp-dcom-telecom@ncar.ucar.edu
From: aem@ibiza.Miami.Edu (a.e.mossberg)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 21 Nov 88 14:52:27 GMT
In <telecom-v08i0183m06@vector.UUCP>, <ucla-an!bongo!julian@ee.UCLA.EDU>
wrote:
> An octothorpe is an # , which is what is usually referred to
> as "the pound sign" or "the hash mark", sometimes as "the number
> symbol". I know the correct term is octothorpe, I have seen
> references to it in some Bell docs, I have even seen a news
> clipping years ago that mentioned it.
Indeed, that's the same place I learned the term, but usually have to
revert to 'number sign' or 'pound sign'.
> My problem is that every now and again, some smart Alec asks
> me where it comes from. I have even been accused of making it
> up. No dictionary I have seen has ever given me a definition.
Yep, same here. I've never been able to find it in a dictionary, nor
have I been able to find the original reference from where I learned
it. I was beginning to think I made it up in some frenzied
nightmare. Perhaps Bell invented it, and then changed their collective
mind.
aem
a.e.mossberg - aem@mthvax.miami.edu - aem@mthvax.span (3.91)
Man is here for the sake of other men. - Albert Einstein
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 88 09:19:28 PST
From: HECTOR MYERSTON <MYERSTON@KL.SRI.COM>
Subject: Octothorpe source
To: telecom@bu-cs.bu.edu
Cc: myerston@KL.SRI.COM
All my Bell System references call # The Number Sign (or Pound).
The only times I see it called an Octothrope is in Northern Telecom Inc
publications talking about Digipulse Dialing, "their name" for DTMF.
The Japanese routinely call it a "Sharp". Obscure to me, logical
to the musically inclined.
+HECTOR+
To: telecom@bu-cs.bu.edu
From: westmark!dave@rutgers.edu (Dave Levenson)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 24 Nov 88 00:52:41 GMT
In article <telecom-v08i0183m06@vector.UUCP>,(julian macassey) writes:
> I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
> OCTOTHORPE.
> I do know that Octo means eight and Thorpe means beam. So the
> word has some roots.
# #
# #
#######
# #
#######
# #
# #
Can't you see the eight beams here?
Dave Levenson
Westmark, Inc. The Man in the Mooney
Warren, NJ USA
{rutgers | att}!westmark!dave
TELECOM Digest Tue, 29 Nov 88 0:23:56 EST Volume 8 : Issue 187
Today's Topics:
Octothorpe
re: Octothorpe source
Re: Octothorpe source
Cordless Phone Recommendations
Re: Building your own phone projects
off-hook indicator
Converting T1 from #5 ESS to Analog
[Moderator's note: It has been a crazy couple of weeks. Jon Solomon has
experimented diligently with various versions of sendmail in an effort to
see to it that each of you receive one copy -- and one copy only -- of
the Digest. Our mailing list was so large the bu-cs send mail apparatus
belched everytime I logged on. We broke the large list down into many
smaller parts. Then, the sun.arpa > sun.com gateway apparently was out
of service for awhile. At least, we audited some copies going to Portal
and found they had sat in the gateway que for two days at a time.
Some machines are still disconnected from the net as a result of the
worm experience, and the end result of all this has been -- I'm almost
ashamed to say -- extremely poor and unreliable delivery of the Digest
since issue 180 until now. We received conflicting reports of delivery
on some issues (like 186), with Mailer-Daemon assuring us the copies had
NOT been delivered, only to remail them and find some of you got THREE
copies, etc. For any of you where FTP can be used to aquire missing
issues, please use that method. FTP bu-cs.bu.edu and ls telecom-archives.
Then look at the file called telecom-recent. If you cannot FTP, then
let me know, and as time permits I will retransmit individual copies.
We -- jsol and I -- keep thinking this long nightmare is almost over. A
special program has been written to transmit the Digest beginning with
this issue we hope will do the job. Patrick Townson]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: 8b@cup.portal.com
To: telecom-request@xx.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Octothorpe
Date: Sat, 26-Nov-88 09:52:20 PST
But...a # doesn't have eight beams...only 4...two really if you define
beam as being horizontal...just call it a pound sign...
which, I suppose, refers to some typewriter which have the British pound
sign over the 3...I just call it the number sign...I've also heard
it referred to as a ticktacktoe...
8b@cup.portal.com
From: minow%thundr.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Repent! Godot is coming soon!
Repent!)
Date: 28 Nov 88 14:17
To: telecom@bu-cs.bu.edu, MINOW%thundr.DEC@decwrl.dec.com
Subject: re: Octothorpe source
According to legend, "octothorpe" is a name that the Bell people made
up for the # on the telephone keypad. I suspect that they couldn't
agree as to whether it was a "pound sign", "sharp", or "number sign"
and eventually compromised (making everyone equally miserable).
Martin Minow
minow%thundr.dec@decwrl.dec.com
[Moderator's question: I am wondering if our correspondent is related to
Newton Minow, well known FCC executive. Just curious. P. Townson]
To: telecom@bu-cs.bu.edu
From: Henry Troup <bnr-fos!bnr-public!hwt>
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 22 Nov 88 15:57:48 GMT
In article <telecom-v08i0183m06@vector.UUCP>
ucla-an!bongo!julian@ee.UCLA.EDU (julian macassey) writes:
> I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
> OCTOTHORPE.
> Julian Macassey, n6are julian@bongo voice (213) 653-4495
I believe AT&T named the little beastie. Anyone at AT&T wanted to
claim responsibility?
Henry Troup utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bnr-public | BNR is not
Bell-Northern Reseach hwt@bnr (BITNET/NETNORTH) | responsible for
Ottawa, Canada (613) 765-2337 (Voice) | my opinions
From telecom@bu-cs.BU.EDU Thu Dec 1 21:43:21 1988
Received: by bu-cs.BU.EDU (4.0/4.7)
id AA07601; Thu, 1 Dec 88 21:43:21 EST
Message-Id: <8812020243.AA07601@bu-cs.BU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 88 21:05:28 EST
From: The Moderator <Telecom-REQUEST@bu-cs.BU.EDU>
Reply-To: TELECOM@bu-cs.BU.EDU
Subject: TELECOM Digest V8 #190
To: TELECOM@bu-cs.bu.edu
TELECOM Digest Thu, 1 Dec 88 21:05:28 EST Volume 8 : Issue 190
Today's Topics:
All You Ever Wanted To Know About Octothorpes
[Moderator's Note: This is a just-for-fun special issue of the Digest
with a random sampling of the mail received pertaining to your favorite
touch-pad key and mine, the lowly octothorpe, or #. As is our custom,
we have even provided a rebuttal message from someone who says the #
is not known as an octothorpe at all....
Now can we get this out of our systems once and for all please? Let's
call it quits on the subject of #, by whatever name. P. Townson]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: larryl@nvuxr.UUCP (L Lang)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 22 Nov 88 15:36:53 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research
Lines: 24
In article <telecom-v08i0183m06@vector.UUCP>,
ucla-an!bongo!julian@ee.UCLA.EDU (julian macassey) writes:
> I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
> OCTOTHORPE.
> An octothorpe is an # , which is what is usually referred to
> as "the pound sign" or "the hash mark", sometimes as "the number
> symbol". I know the correct term is octothorpe, I have seen
> ...
> I do know that Octo means eight and Thorpe means beam. So the
> word has some roots.
> ...
> Julian Macassey, n6are julian@bongo voice (213) 653-4495
When I count "thorpes" (the beams or lines),
I only see four, two vertical and two horizontal.
Perhaps it should be called the QUADROTHORPE.
And does that make the * a TRITHORPE?
Cheers,
Larry Lang
To: comp-dcom-telecom@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
From: desnoyer@Apple.COM (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 30 Nov 88 23:20:40 GMT
Just to provide another point of view:
from CCITT recommendation E.161 (Arrangement of Figures, Letters and
Symbols of Telephones and other Devices that can be used for Gaining
Access to a Telephone Network) as revised for the Blue Book:
3.2.2 Symbols
...
[drawings, with angle between horiz. and vert. strokes, length of
strokes, and length of protruding nubbies labelled alpha, b, and a
respectively]
in Europe alpha = 90 degrees with a/b = 0.08 (looks funny to a
N.A.ican)
in North America alpha = 80 deg. with a/b = 0.18
...
The symbol will be known as the square or the most commonly used
equivalent term in other languages.*
*... alternate term (e.g. "number sign") may be necessary...
I suppose it's useful to have a translatable term. That approach
worked for "star", but it seems to have failed here. Does anyone refer
to '#' as a "square"? Anywhere? Enquiring minds want to know...
Peter Desnoyers
To: telecom@bu-cs.bu.edurom: erik@Morgan.COM (Erik T. Mueller)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 1 Dec 88 19:28:06 GMT
The term "octothorpe" appears in issues of the journal -Telesis- from
the mid to late 1970's published by Bell Northern Research. (Sorry,
I don't have the actual issue numbers handy right now...) I don't know
its origin, but vaguely recall reading somewhere that it was a
Canadian telephony term. As far as I know, the term is/was never used
by AT&T.
-Erik
To: comp-dcom-telecom@decwrl.dec.com
From: avsd!childers (Richard Childers)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 25 Nov 88 21:25:03 GMT
In article <telecom-v08i0183m06@vector.UUCP>
ucla-an!bongo!julian@ee.UCLA.EDU (julian macassey) writes:
> I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
> OCTOTHORPE. ... ( An octothorpe is an # ... )
Well, this isn't authoritative, it's intuitive, but I _think_ it refers
to the symbol as used on a complex organ's key, for a particular mode.
> Julian Macassey, n6are julian@bongo voice (213) 653-4495
-- richard
* Any excuse will serve a tyrant. -- Aesop
*
*
*
* ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho
*
* AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D
*
To: comp-dcom-telecom
From: seeger@beach.cis.ufl.edu (F. L. Charles Seeger III)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 1 Dec 88 15:42:09 GMT
In article <telecom-v08i0184m06@vector.UUCP> MYERSTON@KL.SRI.COM (HECTOR
MYERSTON) writes:
| All my Bell System references call # The Number Sign (or Pound).
|The only times I see it called an Octothrope is in Northern Telecom Inc
|publications talking about Digipulse Dialing, "their name" for DTMF.
| The Japanese routinely call it a "Sharp". Obscure to me, logical
|to the musically inclined.
I usually refer to as "sharp", but may change to octothorpe -- I sometimes
like to tilt at windmills. What are the names of the other ASCII special
symbols? For instance, "&" is an ampersand and "*" an asterisk. Are
there any fancy (preferrably single word) names for the others? I.e names
not of the form "* [sign|mark|symbol]". Does anyone have a reference on
these things, probably a typography reference?
The terms that I use, about which I'm fairly confident:
~ tilde
() [left|right|open|close] parenthesis
[] [left|right|open|close] bracket
{} [left|right|open|close] brace
<> [left|right|open|close] carat
^ circumflex
_ underscore
. period
, comma
; semi-colon
: colon
What about the following: ? ! @ $ % / \ | + = - ` ' "
If I get responses by Email, I'll summarize in a couple of weeks.
Also, feel free to suggest a more appropriate newsgroup.
--
Charles Seeger 216 Larsen Hall
Electrical Engineering University of Florida
seeger@iec.ufl.edu Gainesville, FL 32611
[Moderator's inane comment: PUH-LEASE! write direct to Charlie on this; not
to me. I do not give an iota what those things are called! And now, here is
that rebuttal message...]
To: comp-dcom-telecom@rutgers.edu
From: ron@ron.rutgers.edu (Ron Natalie)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe
Date: 1 Dec 88 22:15:50 GMT
Nope, # is called pound because it is used as a symbol for
pounds (weight). I really expect the brits would put the
Pound Sterling where the $ is on a typewriter keyboards.
-Ron
[And there you have it. All the questions you were embarrassed to ask your
Mother Company all nicely summarized for you by the Octothorpe Digest people
in simple, easy to read format you would not be reluctant to share with your
own children when they are old enough to ask the name of that 'funny looking
key below the nine.'
In issue 191, distributed early Friday morning, news of the increase in
network access fees which took effect 12-1-88, and the correspondending
decrease in rates by AT&T, Sprint, and MCI.]
End of TELECOM Digest
*********************
[TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Then, after several years, in 1995,
someone (Ralph Carlsen) who apparently was a little 'behind in his
reading' submitted a rebuttal regards the '#' debate that I had
_thought_ was settled several years before. Here is the letter from
Ralph Carlsen:
From: carlsen@hotair.att.com (Ralph Carlsen)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 16:21:55 -0500
Subject: Octothorpe (The Answer)
Pat,
The following explains where "octothorpe" really came from. I
am sending this to you because, as you will see, there are very few
people who could know this story. The reason I am writing at this
time is because I volunteered for the AT&T Lay Off package after 34
years of service at Bell Labs so I may not be around much longer.
During the past year I have enjoyed reading your news group, and I
have used your archives a couple of times (once to get "octothorpe").
Your comments and notes on the postings suggest you and I would agree
on lots of things related to our telecom industry.
Ralph Carlsen
THE REAL SOURCE OF THE WORD "OCTOTHORPE"
First, where did the symbols * and # come from? In about 1961
when DTMF dials were still in development, two Bell Labs guys in data
communications engineering (Link Rice and Jack Soderberg) toured the
USA talking to people who were thinking about telephone access to
computers. They asked about possible applications, and what symbols
should be used on two keys that would be used exclusively for data
applications. The primary result was that the symbols should be
something available on all standard typewriter keyboards. The * and #
were selected as a result of this study, and people did not expect to
use those keys for voice services. The Bell System in those days did
not look internationally to see if this was a good choice for foreign
countries.
Then in the early 1960s Bell Labs developed the 101 ESS which
was the first stored program controlled switching system (it was a
PBX). One of the first installations was at the Mayo Clinic. This
PBX had lots of modern features (Call Forwarding, Speed Calling,
Directed Call Pickup, etc.), some of which were activated by using the
# sign. A Bell Labs supervisor DON MACPHERSON went to the Mayo Clinic
just before cut over to train the doctors and staff on how to use the
new features on this state of the art switching system. During one of
his lectures he felt the need to come up with a word to describe the #
symbol. Don also liked to add humor to his work. His thought process
which took place while at the Mayo Clinic doing lectures was as follows:
- There are eight points on the symbol so "OCTO" should be part
of the name.
- We need a few more letters or another syllable to make a
noun, so what should that be? (Don MacPherson at this point in his
life was active in a group that was trying to get JIM THORPE's Olympic
medals returned from Sweden) The phrase THORPE would be unique, and
people would not suspect he was making the word up if he called it an
"OCTOTHORPE".
So Don Macpherson began using the term Octothorpe to describe
the # symbol in his lectures. When he returned to Bell Labs in
Holmdel NJ, he told us what he had done, and began using the term
Octothorpe in memos and letters. The term was picked up by other Bell
Labs people and used mostly for the fun of it. Some of the documents
which used the term Octothorpe found their way to Bell Operating
Companies and other public places. Over the years, Don and I have
enjoyed seeing the term Octothorpe appear in documents from many
different sources.
Don MacPherson retired about eight years ago, and I will be
retiring in about six weeks.
Ralph Carlsen
These are, of course, my remembrances and are not any official statement
of AT&T or the subsequent 3 companies.
[TELECOM Digest Editor's 1995 Note: Thank you very much for sharing. This
is indeed an interesting report. Do you think you could get Don MacPherson
to join us here among the Digest readership? PAT]
[TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Should we do this with the '#' sign
again ten or twelve years from now? Probably ... PAT]
Patrick Townson (ptownson@telecom-digest.org)